AK fold...but the flop was so pretty

gildwulf · #1 07-06-2005, 05:52 PM

Villain is OK from what I've seen (no donkish behavior but that doesn't mean he's not a donk).

My thinking was this is either a huge reraise or a quiet fold...

The minraise set off some warning bells...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

MP2 (t805)
MP3 (t980)
CO (t400)
Button (t865)
SB (t1215)
Hero (t770)
UTG (t925)
UTG+1 (t1355)
MP1 (t685)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises to t60, 5 folds, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t135) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t90, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t225

Geordie Ramone · #2 07-06-2005, 05:58 PM

I dont see how you can consider a reraise when you didnt reraise preflop. Easy easy fold

octaveshift · #3 07-06-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position. You have AK. A reraise is in order, IMO.

Isura · #4 07-06-2005, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position. You have AK. A reraise is in order, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you mean we are out of position, so we might want to reraise to make postflop play a bit clearer.

bigt439 · #5 07-06-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position. You have AK. A reraise is in order, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very surprised a reraise is being considered here. That leaves you out of position with about 20% of your stack in the pot with a hand that will miss more often than it will hit. It's going to be very hard, and probably dumb, to continuation bet considering the donks that could be around min raising at this level and their ridiculous calling ranges. Not to mention that over half your stack will be in after a continuation bet. Why not smooth call and be able to trap on a safe a high or k high flop. Check raising the flop or turn on something like that would be a good way to get alot of money in. You get away very cheap when you miss too. I think this is a clear smoothcall. I also don't even understand this post. What else do you want to do on the flop?

gildwulf · #6 07-06-2005, 06:38 PM

Good points...

I was just interested to see if anyone would consider playing the flop, and I figured the only way anyone would play it would be to raise it.

How would you have played it if AK reraised preflop?

citanul · #7 07-06-2005, 06:42 PM

in the future you might also want to note the buyin level of the hands you post.

i push preflop here.

my hand is very good, so i want to raise, and is pointed out, a raise that is smaller will leave you out of position post flop with a significant chunk of chips in the middle. and given that you're at an 800 chip game, you're going to get called here often by a worse hand when you push.

citanul

gildwulf · #8 07-06-2005, 06:44 PM

You push a stack into a 100 chip pot??? That seems pretty donkish...the blinds are T30. Is the reasoning here that any raise leaves you pot committed? Isn't that a better argument for just calling here?

The buy-in was 20s...I thought I posted it but I guess I didn't.

citanul · #9 07-06-2005, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You push a stack into a 100 chip pot??? That seems pretty donkish...the blinds are T30. Is the reasoning here that any raise leaves you pot committed? Isn't that a better argument for just calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i push here, with most likely the best hand, for the chips my opponent has left, if he decides to play the hand with me. for the reasons i stated in my previous post. i don't think that that post was in any way ambiguous about why i push.

why not call? because pushing is better. 2/3 of the time you're going to miss he flop if you just call, and then you'll have to be either folding or "getting creative" as it were. why do that when you're starting the hand with likely the best hand?

it's entirely possible that many players would play this hand post calling preflop in a -cEV fashion, while pushing preflop i believe to be +cEV. that's the brunt of it.

the idea that "i don't want to put my stack in there early with a small pot" is so entirely flawed it's not funny. if you can get some idiot to put all their chips in there with you early as a significant dog, you should be doing it, often. at the lower buyin tournaments, you should be able to do this often. players who complain of having a short stack too often near the bubble are victims of this "don't bust out" mentality.

it is bad.

citanul

gildwulf · #10 07-06-2005, 07:00 PM

Wow, this is really interesting.

You are right that a lot of people are donks at the beginning...but more often than not these people are instacalling with low-mid pocketpair where you would be a slight dog...

Also, what about Sklanksy's point in TPFAP that in tourneys you should wait out marginal EV situations for all your chips until a better one comes along? That is what I mean by pulling a move like this early in the tourney...

V. interesting point though.