A strange hand... blind defense at 15/30

[elindauer]

CO open raises. I call in the big blind with KK. I expect this player to bet the flop every time, so I like check-raising with big hands, which puts me in the same position (flop, 4SB in, his turn to act) but holding a hand that is much better concealed.

Anyways...

flop: Ah Qh 2s

Yuck. I check and call. I'm kind of happy I didn't 3-bet.

turn: Qc

Yuck. I check and wish I was not playing this hand. Then I call.

River: Ts

I check and ...


thanks.
eric

[limon]

in my experience a 3 bet preflop does not preclude a check raise on the flop. its one of my pet plays.

What's his range?

[ggbman]

Its hard to imagine he thinks he can value bet a worse hand or get you to fold at this point, so my inclination is to fold to a bet here.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
CO open raises. I call in the big blind with KK. I expect this player to bet the flop every time, so I like check-raising with big hands, which puts me in the same position (flop, 4SB in, his turn to act) but holding a hand that is much better concealed.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this is generally just a change-up for you but I think that everyone online thinks everyone else is FOS and that goes up exponentially in stealish situations, so calling has about zero deception value compared to 3-betting.

Otherwise I play it the same and usually check/call the river.

I'd probably fold the turn here, if i didnt have a read on my opponent.

You can beat 9-9 through J-J, so, I can find a fold on the turn.

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]
Its hard to imagine he thinks he can value bet a worse hand or get you to fold at this point, so my inclination is to fold to a bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[skp]

I don't think you want to "conceal" your hand here. A 3 bet preflop is way better.

If the flop comes co-ordinated and you checkraise, there are too many cards that might come off on the turn that make him fold. Of course, you generally don't want that when you have a hand as strong as KK.

Besides, if you 3 bet preflop, he may well just put you on a big ace and try and outplay you postflop.

Not sure if I am expressing my thoughts right. To put it another way, a preflop 3 bet may lead him to put you on a narrow range of holdings but it includes holdings that he might consider quite weak postflop i.e. just a big Ace. A preflop smoothcall with flop checkraise will lead him to put you on a broad range of hands and lead to a greater number of scare cards for him on the turn.

I would 3 bet preflop in order to induce a greater likelihood of action postflop (if that makes any sense...lol).

If I had Ak in the bb, I would smoothcall preflop and chcekraise any flop (unless I hit) for the exact opposite reasons.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
in my experience a 3 bet preflop does not preclude a check raise on the flop. its one of my pet plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you do this with hands that are not overpairs on the flop as well? Let's put it this way:

a) CO will steal with a wide range. That means lots of hands are playable for me. So...

b) if you are going to 3-bet your good hands, that still leaves lots of hands that are playable but not 3-bettable. so...

c) you also need to 3-bet lots of weak hands to balance your strategy, if you give your opponent any credit, now...

d) if you 3-bet / check-raise with big hands, you also need to take this same line with weaker hands.


Do you?

Also, you aren't nearly as sure that you'll get that flop bet after you 3-bet preflop. If you call and check, most players bet every time, no matter what the flop or what they hold. So you virtually always get 4 SB in by the end of the flop. If you 3-bet and check, I'd guess you get a lot more check behinds then you do if you call and check.

Your line is certainly a viable option, and has merit if only because few players will have seen it or understand how to handle it well.

-eric

[elindauer]

Well, I called the turn feeling that I had shown so little strength that a weaker pocket pair may well bet hoping to push me off a gutshot draw, etc. Once I call the turn though, I feel I've made it clear that I'm either going to call the river, or perhaps have a gutshot draw.

When the river is a ten, my opponent should easily see that bluffing is futile. If he's thinking at all, he should realize that I now have at least a pair and am probably going to call. In fact, if I watched this hand and didn't know my cards, I'd expect me to call too!

I figured weaker pairs would probably check behind on the river. Would you really value bet JJ again? 66? Would you bet JT having rivered a little something to showdown? It just seemed much more likely that a bet would come from an A, a Q, or a total bluff. With an AQQT board, total bluff seemed unlikely, so I checked and folded.

It's not too often you play KK, don't ever raise, and don't showdown HU! It's possible I folded the winner, but no one seems to upset about this line so I guess it at least reasonably close.

Thanks for the comments.
-Eric