SO how long have you been playing 10/20 or lower?

[molawn2mo]

Only 15 months, so I'm still a n00b, I guess. Never having had a bankroll issue, I have never played a hand at less than 3/6 because I figured that at the lower limits I would be "learning" or picking up "bad" habits.

As in life, we learn the most in our youngest years, an infant gains knowledge/awareness on an hourly basis while an octogenarian.... Poker seems no different. Alter your expectations.

It is quite interesting for me to read that you "... mentally labor to have a minor revelation." I mentally labor to try and improve mathematically but in no case will that laboring result in "revelation" or an epiphany. My epiphanies in poker and in life are seemingly a result of the opposite of "mentally laboring;" these moments, even though fewer and farther between as we get on in years, seem to manifest outside of the realm of the logical, mathematical mind (though they may the result of prior rigorous logical thought, I suppose). I guess what I am trying to say that you should trust your diligence in the learning process, not over-pursue it, relax more and let it flow. Trust yourself and be in the moment.

And to answer your question... Truthfully and without any self-aggrandizement, since I have met very little resisitance at the 3 levels of online play that I have played through, having withstood 1 250 BB downswing and several 150 BB downswings, but pretty much always being up and "playing with their money" at each level, I don;t feel as if I'll have a problem "settling" for a level commensurate with my ultimate abilities and risk tolerence. For me, it's a game first and a padding to income second. When it ceases to be a game I'll be outta there.

Hang in there. Things will get better.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
Only 15 months, so I'm still a n00b, I guess. Never having had a bankroll issue, I have never played a hand at less than 3/6 because I figured that at the lower limits I would be "learning" or picking up "bad" habits.

As in life, we learn the most in our youngest years, an infant gains knowledge/awareness on an hourly basis while an octogenarian.... Poker seems no different. Alter your expectations.

It is quite interesting for me to read that you "... mentally labor to have a minor revelation." I mentally labor to try and improve mathematically but in no case will that laboring result in "revelation" or an epiphany. My epiphanies in poker and in life are seemingly a result of the opposite of "mentally laboring;" these moments, even though fewer and farther between as we get on in years, seem to manifest outside of the realm of the logical, mathematical mind (though they may the result of prior rigorous logical thought, I suppose). I guess what I am trying to say that you should trust your diligence in the learning process, not over-pursue it, relax more and let it flow. Trust yourself and be in the moment.

And to answer your question... Truthfully and without any self-aggrandizement, since I have met very little resisitance at the 3 levels of online play that I have played through, having withstood 1 250 BB downswing and several 150 BB downswings, but pretty much always being up and "playing with their money" at each level, I don;t feel as if I'll have a problem "settling" for a level commensurate with my ultimate abilities and risk tolerence. For me, it's a game first and a padding to income second. When it ceases to be a game I'll be outta there.

Hang in there. Things will get better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think things are necessarily bad. It is just that when I first started 5/10 full and then 5/10 short, now 10/20 full. I just get the feeling I am not too far ahead of the "raging horde".

Now at the 5/10 levels, I feel I have a sufficient edge. Which is not to say that I am smacking them around and about to start making Bicyclekick style posts about how I destroy games. But yes comfortable at 5/10.

However through my first 5,000-7,000 hands at 10/20, I really don't see/feel a very comfortable edge at this point. Even moreso than I did starting 5/10, except it is more pronounced.

I realise that I will continue to adjust. But my mind is on the higher levels as well. When I look at how much effort/thought I had to put into 5/10 and now seeing that I have my work cut out for me at 10/20. I just wonder how many more times I can pull off the level jumping thing.

It just seems for some people these transitions are reltively effortless. The fact that I have to work so hard to do it makes me wonder if I have some inherent defect when it comes to poker.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Now at the 5/10 levels, I feel I have a sufficient edge. Which is not to say that I am smacking them around and about to start making Bicyclekick style posts about how I destroy games. But yes comfortable at 5/10.

However through my first 5,000-7,000 hands at 10/20, I really don't see/feel a very comfortable edge at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my situation, precisely. I have a few more hands at 10/20 than you do, but my edge, if I have one, seems thin at best.

I have a pretty good idea of where I need to improve however, so all is not lost.

Like I've said before, as you move up you really need to swueeze eevry last bet of EV from +EV situations. And while calling down at smaller stakes became the norm for me, its clear that not folding enough post-flop--yes, even top-pair--is a leak.

There's also a lot more poker involved now, and a lot less cards. Last night, eg, I made a move with bottom pair where I c/r'd a LP bettor on a AJ2 borad. The guys numbers indicated to me that he'd have raised an ace pre-flop and I thought I could take the pot.

[einbert]

Shant,

I understand that you are very frustrated about your position in the poker ecosystem right now. Poker is an incredibly frustrating pastime. As lucrative as it has been for me, it has caused more stress in my life than any other single event.

But I think there is a golden lining to it all. Yes, poker can be a harsh bitch. However, as cliche as it might be, worthwhile things simply don't come easy. Getting from $.50/$1.00 to 3/6, for me, for whatever reason (most likely I ran hot as [censored]), wasn't hard. I just kept playing and kept winning, and I kept moving up as my bankroll grew. It was nice to have the extra money, but it didn't add any satisfaction or self-esteem to my life. In my mind, I was simply exploiting the fact that other people were ignorant about poker and making money off of it. I didn't have to do any hard work to figure out concepts for myself--all the information I needed to maintain a steady win was found in these forums and SSHE.

As I kept winning, I got greedier and greedier for a higher hourly rate. So I moved on up to 5/10 6max. At first I ran very hot in that game, but eventually I started to lose--hard and fast. I remember my first 200 BB downswing and how utterly frustrating that was. At that point I knew that this game is going to be harder to beat than the microlimits. Part of me wanted to move back down to 3/6 where I could simply grind out a steady earn, but for whatever reason I decided to stick it out. Through a ton of hard work, dedication, and a complete reassessing of my priorities and thoughts in relation to each hand of poker, I have been able to push through 5/10 and move up into 10/20.

I have taken several shots at 15/30, one time dropping more than 150 BBs. I have come to the perhaps right, perhaps wrong conclusion that 15/30 is, again, "a totally different ballgame." And somedays I just feel like I am doomed to stay at 10/20 forever. Somedays I just want to move back down to 5/10 so I don't have to think so damn hard.

Maybe it is because I have something to prove to the world. Maybe it is because I'm greedy and want to be able to buy more toys. Maybe it is because I have a tremendous fear of working a 9-5 job where iI have to take orders from someone who is very likely lescompetent than me. But I have become very stubborn about my goals, and the main one is to think, learn, and improve as much as possible every single day.

Moving beyond 10/20 is not going to be easy for you or just about anyone else. Maybe in my run at 15/30 last summer I had run incredibly hot and won 150BBs instead of losing that much. But sooner or later I would have to improve my game beyond what it takes to beat 10/20, or I would just end up donating it all back. And while at times the climb can be incredibly tiring, frustrating, and at times I simply want to give up and go back to 3/6 and mindlessly grind out 8 tables of money, I choose to press on.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't give up. And, poker is difficult. It took me a damn long time to accept that truth. But it's basically the principle truth here. The great thing about this truth, though, is that once we realize and accept this truth (both intellectually and emotionally), we transcend it. As soon as I accepted that each rung up the limit ladder wasn't going to be as easy to navigate as the transition from 2/4 to 3/6, it became much more easy to accept hard work, downswings, and patience. And I feel like the steps I've had to take to get from 3/6 to where I am today have really transformed my personality--some people might call it "character building". So why not allow my character to be built some more, especally if it means more money in my pocket, right?


Anyway I hope this doesn't come off as a bragging post. I think it might. But it was intended to be a post of encouragement, maybe even of inspiration [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I've never had a close relationship with brevity, but if I did perhaps my post would look more like this:
Hey, I'm fighting the same fight you are. And yeah, it's not easy. It's hard as [censored]. But I'm not gonna give up because damn it, I'm good enough, smart enough, and greedy enough to do the work required to get there. And so are you!


So remember while you are going through the toils and minefields of the daily struggle, you're not alone. It's not easy for you, but it's not easy for anyone else either. It's hard as [censored], but you will always have friends here who are going through the same [censored], who you can lean on during the droughts and celebrate with when the harvest is plentiful.

Good luck.

Once you get up into the 15/30 and above range I think it's time to stop playing Limit poker and focus on NL poker. Like people have posted, anyone playing at 15/30 or above knows what they are doing. You won't find too many degenerate gamblers, etc. In the NL game, however, I believe you may find more of this sort of thing (because of TV, popularity, etc.)

BTW, I've played both and I've found NL players to be much worse in general.

[paperboyNC]

Particularly online, the jump from small-stakes to mid-stakes is significant. You can make money at 5/10 just by playing straightforward solid poker. You can stay away from most marginal situations and esp. with rakeback and bonuses come out ahead.

Once you move up, you are going to run into a lot more aggression and the most difficult thing is to find a balance between calling down too much and folding too much. There are hands where you should call down with AKo and other hands where you should fold TPTK. As you move up though, you have to error more on the side of calling down too much rather than folding too much.

I guess this is a long-winded post so I'll end it here.

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I've said before, as you move up you really need to swueeze eevry last bet of EV from +EV situations. And while calling down at smaller stakes became the norm for me, its clear that not folding enough post-flop--yes, even top-pair--is a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me add one to the above list. That is, encouraging villain, when behind and drawing to poor odds, to not fold and to see the turn and/or river for 1 or 2 BB.

[ QUOTE ]
There's also a lot more poker involved now, and a lot less cards. Last night, eg, I made a move with bottom pair where I c/r'd a LP bettor on a AJ2 borad. The guys numbers indicated to me that he'd have raised an ace pre-flop and I thought I could take the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty standard read that you must make. The next level of awareness becomes when Villain knows you know this. Now the metafun starts!

Lastly, since I suspect that you and Flair come from the 4-6 tabler training school, you may also be finding out that you can not continue that mode of operation at least until you get more familiar with the differences inherit at this higher limit.

[Emmitt2222]

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] you. Come back soon and be my mentor or something.

To flair, I am still at 2/4 after over a year of playing. I played 20k hands at 3/6 6max and broke even and I felt uncomfotable so I moved back down.

[SenecaJim]

I've been playing off and on for over couple years but just started putting in 40-50 hours a week full time about 3 months ago (live poker). So far I am making acceptable wage but 600 hrs. is nothing. I live in constant awareness of standard deviation and try to play like I could lose it ALL tommorow to help keep me focused.

I play 5-10 and 10-20 when available. (limited choices, small casio) but always able to play at anytime. 5-10 is main offering. 3-6 more rare than 10-20 even. so, when I first started going bout a year ago, would have liked wetting feet at smaller but didn't have choice.

A caino further away has bigger games (not always).

Thing is with limited choices, when you play 10-20 and it is highest game in room, you can get some tough (at least toughest in area) players. The aggression level is main thing. I play the way i feel is correct to the best of my current ability and do decent, but it's like I am so surprised sometimes when I win a pot.

At the lower limits it's like " How can you keep calling with that crap" to " How could you have raised me on the turn with that hand?" (These are private thoughts. I would never, and have never, commented on another player's play in a negative way)

Main thing is experience, experience , experience along with the study. I have spent HOURS studying the 2+2 books but you have to learn by doing ( or least I do). Frequently at the table, after I have already maybe pooched the hand, i"m not even sure, will run home to "look it back up" or post here.

Even at the table , ex post facto, I will think "Oooohhhh, THAT"S what ED meant by this, or that's why David or Mason said this can get you into trouble".

So besides working on obvious skills of hand reading, etc. I am really trying to concentrate on thinking ahead. Now, some hands I used to think looked good I will think " what the hell am i going to do with this if such and such hits the turn and i check or bet and get raised, blah, blah.

And focus. Playing the best poker you can ALL THE TIME. Those guys tell you that flat out, but you gotta live it to feel it. (I'm light-years away from that right now)

Someday, maybe a year from now or more, I will being going on down to bigger casino and playing 20-40. It will take a LOTTA WORK. Maybe I will burn out. Maybe I won't have time later I do now. Maybe I won't be good enough. Whatever. I love the game of poker. Hell, I could be dead before I even get there. One day at a time, baby.(baby=scotty tribute). Right now, i'm lovin' it and strivin', and it will end where it ends.

IT's a real study in life, one of things i enjoy. We all know how frustrating the game can be. Last night (granted, it was 4am at the time and we have been going 15 hours or so, a young guy about 23 or so sped away from the table and it was obvious he was about to cry. I mind my own business but I wanted to tell the kid, and not to be an ass but cause I felt sorry for him (would still bust him out, dont' get me wrong) that he might wanna do somehting a little less stessful for him, ya know. I can see what Al means about studying people at the table, well, he is a psychologist, but human nature is on parade under the stress of poker.

Anyway, good luck to all of you and myself on moving up someday. We'll land where we land.

[shant]

Thanks einbert. That was a great post. I owe you a beer.