Live no limit hand for cussin' and discussin'

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I limp with QhTh on the button after a bunch of limpers. No raise. Flop comes QJT rainbow with one heart. SB bets $10, BB raises to $25. Everyone else folds to me.

I think about it for a while, then fold. My reasoning here...

The BB is probably raising with a hand that can BEAT top pair. There are only a few hands he can possibly have if this is correct, QJ, JT, QT, 89, K9, AK (unlikely, since no raise), or a set (also not especially likely, again, no raise). So assuming no set, there's one hand that I can beat (JT) and one that I tie (QT) and the rest I lose to. Obviously there are no pot odds to draw to a full house, and even then, some of my boats I could lose with anyway.

So I folded.

Results later.

Comments?

*****************

OK, so here's one buddy of mine (with a drastically different playing style) who threw in his 2c...

"First of all...why are you limping in the pot in the first place and putting yourself in that position of "second guessing" yourself, when a standard raise would given you more information on what your up against....after all, your on the button, seen all the limpers, and was perhaps a good time to get some people out with the Queen/Ten suited which you had....?

secondly, since no raise pre-flop, I'm guessing no premium hands here....so putting them on the best of all worlds (a set, 8/9, A/K, Q/J) highly unlikely, but of course possible...I don't know what kind of table you were on, but assuming it's an average table, except for the 8/9, possibly the 10/10, I'm sure there would of been raises if the other possibilites...

Okay, the guy puts the pseudo-standard "feeler" bet of 10 bucks to see where he is at...the other guy raises to 25 to get YOU out, added protection, and probably has a piece of it...I would have to think you have the best hand in this situation...and I would of probably re-raised a large amount (putting the raiser on A/Q? or K/Q? Or Q/rag?...but once again, I don't know the type of players you are talking about...were they very tight and now suddenly started betting big? Or are they loose? I always think one should trust their instincts....if you folded, there must of been a reason.

YES, I agree with you, it's a dangerous board... if they pick up the straight, or already have the straight, that puts you on the task of pulling out a full-house....or runner runner flush...."

********************

Raise preflop? Just limp? Make a large reraise on the flop? Just call? Fold?

comments please on all of it.

al

[fimbulwinter]

we're gonna need stack sizes for sure. I assume this was 2/5?

fim

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Sorry, can't believe I left that out...

It was 1-2 and we all three had a bit over $200 but not a whole lot more.

al

[Ghazban]

I don't really mind the fold, but I don't think live 1/2 players categorically can beat top pair when they raise a flop bet. You probably see KQ/AQ or even something like Q9/J9/T9 that has no clue about the relative crappiness of his holding (maybe even an A9 who thinks his OESD is well-hidden).

The key is that, if you are behind, you are drawing quite thin and, if you're ahead, they're probably drawing very live.

Oh yeah, and the original bettor could come over the top, too. Fold ist gut.

[ohkanada]

Limp and then a fold sounds fine to me. Sure against some players or on some tables, you have a call or raise but normally you would be behind.

Ken

[Mackerel]

FWIW, you played it exactly like I would in most circumstances. Why in the heck would you want to raise on the button w/QTs after a bunch of limpers? To isolate yourself against hands that dominate you?

Also, from the blinds, I would limp most of the hands (after this many limpers) that have you in bad shape, including AK a lot of the time.

You are likely either slightly ahead or way behind, and with the possibility of the SB coming back over the top after you call, it could get really ugly fast trying to find out. Good fold.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

FWIW, I tend to limp a lot preflop rather than raise a lot, especially with hands like QTs. In these small, usually soft vegas games I like to see the flop cheep, then get out if it doesn't suit me. AKs of course gets raised, but QTs? Probably not, at least not by me. My buddy tends to be more proactive, the hyper-aggressive type, while I tend to wait and pounce when I have the goods.

As it turned out, the turn was a small offsuit rag. SB again bet $10 and was again raised to $25, called. River another rag. SB bets $10 AGAIN and gets raised to $25 AGAIN, calls. SB had Q6 (???) and the BB had one of the hands I suspected, K9 for a straight.

al

[Mackerel]

[ QUOTE ]
SB had Q6 (???)

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL....buy this guy a drink, and give the cutest, single cocktail waitress that you're on friendly terms with a Jackson to flirt with him some and keep him smiling. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[srm80]

dude flops a straight with K9 and then raises big to get you out? you should consider yourself lucky that BB didn't just call and let you call and lose more money!

[the 9]

Listen to your buddy, sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

He's right about the limping and the flop raising in a general sense, it plays out very differently when you take control of the hand preflop.

You also discounted KQ and AQ which could easily be holdings for the flop raiser. See a turn card at least here - it doesn't sound like you have trouble folding hands so you're not going to go to the felt if any Ace, king, 9 or J comes and you get significant action.