Why Oh why?: Or Lost My Nerve

[yenforyen]

First time playing B&M 6/12. (I’ve been winning 1.4BB/hr at 3/6 for two months and decided to try moving up. The next level at my club is 6/12.) Table seems fairly tight with solid players. Maybe a couple of looser young guys in shades but no one drawing attention to himself. I win a pot pretty quickly with pocket Js and relax a little. Then, I’m dealt black Qs on the button and I cap it with four other players. The flop comes JJx and I cap it again with three other players. A very talkative Asian guy in UTG+1 has got my attention. He sat down one orbit before this hand. He’s often shouts out the card he wants, tells others what his hand is, urging them to bet or not, but from what I’ve seen so far he seems like a pretty good player. I’m guessing he has a J.

The turn is a K and I half decide that I need to represent pocket Ks while worrying that someone may already have pocket Ks. Here’s where I blow it. The Asian guy bets, MP1 raises, MP2 calls and I call. What? There’s lots of rumbling around the table. The Asian guy says "You don’t cap, I win," which pretty much sums it up. I knew the moment I didn’t raise that I’d screwed up. I even had a chance to redeem myself when the turn was an ace, but was already in a fog and folded. The Asian guy had KJ and he probably wouldn’t have folded with a full house. Or would he? I’ll never know, will I?

My question is why did I not raise? I don’t think I’d have done this at my usual level. I’m kind of surprised I did this because I think I’m naturally tight/aggressive but lost my nerve at a crucial moment. Comments?

[Brian]

Hi yenforyen,

I don't see what you are beating yourself up over. This guy wasn't going to fold his full house. I think you are putting way too much focus on this concept of "representing" something, especially at the lower limits. At LL Hold'em, your opponents are generally playing their cards and the board, not really paying much attention to what you have. And even if they think, "Hm he might have pocket Aces", they sure as hell aren't folding their pair on the board, or in this case, full house.

-Brian

[Bob T.]

He wouldn't have folded, he would have just kept betting and raising. You were drawing to two outs from the flop on, and you probably needed to slow down then.

[onegymrat]

Hi Yen,

[ QUOTE ]
My question is why did I not raise?

[/ QUOTE ]Because you knew you were going to lose unless you spike a queen.
[ QUOTE ]
I don’t think I’d have done this at my usual level.

[/ QUOTE ]That doesn't make it right either.
[ QUOTE ]
...because I think I’m naturally tight/aggressive but lost my nerve at a crucial moment.

[/ QUOTE ]There's a fine line separating aggressive and maniacal. Perhaps your last minute decision to not raise shows you are crossing over to just aggressive.

It seems like you were confident that Asian guy had a jack, in which you would need a prayer to win the hand. What would the turn reraise accomplish? A free card? I think not. No one in their right mind would fold the second nut full house unless you actually flashed your hand. This justs opens up to another reraise, and your 22 to 1 odds don't look so good anymore. Though you weren't very clear in describing the turn. Did Asian guy reraise the MP raise? He should have. What did MP have?

[yenforyen]

Actually, the Asian guy didn't raise MP's raise on the turn. One MP had AK and I didn't see the other guy's cards.

I guess I'm just disappointed with myself for not being decisive at a moment I needed to be. I was the button and had been representing a big pair, which I had, just not the right big pair. I wasn't hoping to spike a Q, I was hoping to scare people out by looking like I had Ks full. As Brian and Bob T. pointed out, the Ag might not have folded but if I'd been bold he might have, possibly convincing the others to follow suit.

I've had some luck with this kind of bold play in the past. I only do it occasionally. Isn't this what poker's all about?

[pudley4]

The pot is so large that it's highly doubtful anyone with a better hand than you will fold here (maybe KQ will fold, but they don't all have KQ)

[PocketRocketsBF]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had some luck with this kind of bold play in the past. I only do it occasionally. Isn't this what poker's all about?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, for me poker is all about playing my best and having fun, not playing like a maniac, but to each his own.

You had luck with this kind of bold move in the past because your opponents didn't have anything (which is typical of the loosey goosey 3/6 games you have been playing in). Seriously, there is NO WAY with this much action and the pot the size that it is that your raises are going to do anything to move 3 Jacks or Kings or Aces out of the hand.

I don't mean to be cruel but you are the type of player that I love having in my game - betting your pocket pairs way too hard when the board and betting are telling you to do otherwise.

[yenforyen]

Not cruel at all. Let me have it. I'm trying to become a better player (and have fun) by clarifying my thinking in this type of situation. Thank you, and the others, for your comments.

[onegymrat]

Hi Yen,

Oh, yeah! Don't you just love how this game is unpredictable? Anyway, I do see your point, and at times you definitely have to make some gutsy moves to take a pot. But if you're going to do so, you need to put yourself in the shoes of your opponent, based on what you put him on, and see if he's liable to do what you intend for him to do. People often think alike, more than people know.

It was capped pf and flop right? So I can only assume there are some nice holdings out there. If you were in the shoes of AG, would you fold to two more bets AND you have trip jacks (you don't know about his house yet). Remember, he went through a cap pf and flop, and with the pot being huge, why would he fold?

Yen, I'm not knocking your aggressive play. I work on that every session myself. I just question the timing of this one. I would have folded the turn when it came two bets to me, but that's just me. Good luck.

[Alobar]

Am I the only one folding the flop when it comes to me 3 bet? If not I'm definately folding the turn