200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[bicyclekick]

Same 200/400 as the other post (full table) . A couple hours later and I'm still running good with a very good tight/solid image. The villain in the hand is terry...a local woman who IMO is the best player at the table(and i'm either 2nd or a close third...so it's a decent game for 2 and 4). I know she respects my play quite a bit by a few comments she's made and we really haven't banged heads much yet. I've 3 bet her in position a few times and she's check/folded the flop. She hasn't been doing this vs other players so I think she thinks I'm pretty tight but maybe it's just the cards she's gotten vs me.

She opens in the CO which is no suprise(she opens a lot of hands...), especially on my blind. I've been givin it up pretty easily this session as the situations just haven't been right.

Folded to me in the BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I 3 bet. This is the 2nd time I've put a raise in out of the blinds and the last time I had kings and showed it down.

She calls.

Flop J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, she raises, I call.

Turn 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I bet, she raises, I insta 3 bet.

[ike]

Yah, that looks good. 3 betting preflop given the situation seems to make it much easier to beat ace high. The stop and go seems right since you don't want her checking behind the turn nor do you want to just go off on the flop where her pair and spade hand isn't actually giving your top pair any money. Given that she raises the turn, I think the 3bet is clearly right as you should be well ahead of her range of hands here.

[limon]

in my experience players dont semi bluff raise twice. david even writes this in hpfap. on the turn your donk looks like your protecting a solid made hand. her raise says she can beat a solid made hand. your generally losing at this point no reason to 3 bet but the pot is big enough to call down.

[skp]

The turn bet is excellent IMO but I agree with Limon that 3 betting the turn is a bit dicey. It's a great 3 bet if she will then drop a hand with a medium ranking spade in it but I don't think she will. It can also be a great 3 bet for some metagame purposes. But overall, getting popped twice in one hand is not good news.

If you think she is doing the old "raise turn, go for free river showdown play", you could foil that plan somewhat by betting the river assuming it's not a spade. Of course, if she pops you again and wins, you would be a reverse trifecta victim.

[J.A.Sucker]

Hi BK,

I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.

I don't like your flop aciton, either. 3 bet and lead the turn. Then, call if raised. I'd check call any river, unless it's a non-spade K. A non-spade J is closer.

One main problem with being out of position in headsup battles is you don't get that bet on the end that you can often get in position. Too bad.

[skp]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.


[/ QUOTE ]

While I tend also to usually just call for the reasons you state, many would argue (somewhat forcefully) that because both players will miss most times, it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

I would call 60% and 3 bet 40%. Maybe it's 65/35...whatever

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when you donkbet the flop, people never trust it. So a better hand never folds, because your flop bet looks weird to them. You might be able to get a worse hand to fold though, which is better than them making you fold.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I know if I'm the CO I give up much easier when I miss the flop the way BK played it.

If this does somehow get to showdown the villain will likely start 4 betting most everything she steals with to take back the initiative, or she will start playing back harder post flop. Is this good or bad for you? Do you then 5 bet sometimes to sieze the initiative again?

[skp]

whoa...no fair just quoting a portion of my post.

My words were "<u>many would argue</u> (somewhat forcefully)....it is important to 3 bet to seize the initiative.