An interesting sitituation .....

[DpR]

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It hasn't tripped me up. You are getting 3:1 on a 2.3:1 bet. It's a non-debatable equity problem. Also, since you can "see" his cards, it's even easier because you don't have to call the turn when he improves there, so your odds are actually much better - but I don't feel like figuring out how much better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
-James

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The way to think about this is that you flop call not only buys your equity in the pot, but also purchases an option on a turn bet - which you will have complete information on. So you just add in the value of that option to the straight pot equity.

[adamstewart]

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Hero isn't drawing... he has the best hand right now.

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if we have 30% chance of winning we clearly don't have the best hand now.

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Don't be a nit; the meaning of the statement is clear.

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it's clear but also wrong


we are definitely drawing to safe outs here. it's an important distinction, I think. IMO the person I was responding to was being a nit.

and don't call me a nit

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Seriously, you're being a nit.

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no he's not. This has been discussed before ad nauseum on here in relation to the Matusow vs Raymer hand from the 2004 world series. No matter what way you try to twist it, the 98 is the best hand. 98 isnt drawing here, A2 is. Those who can't see that have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game.

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Please define "drawing".


By my definition, A-high need not improve to beat 9-high. Therefore 9-high is "drawing" to a better hand.



FWIW, I realize a lot of this discussion has been a debate about semantics (this being one of them).

Adam

[adamstewart]

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Hero isn't drawing... he has the best hand right now.

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if we have 30% chance of winning we clearly don't have the best hand now.

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Um, wrong.

A-high beats 9-high. Hero has the best hand.



Adam

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Then you should have included an option for RAISE. You do raise when you have the better hand, right? So, therefore, we should cap the flop because we are ahead right now, right?






(No.)

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Re-read my original post. This issue was already addressed.



Adam

[JinX11]

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Re-read my original post. This issue was already addressed.



Adam

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Right...and I am questioning how you addressed this:


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By the same token, it is out of the question for Hero to raise. However, Hero does currently have the best hand.

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You didn't address it. You state these two things as fact, rather than addressing the paradox apparent to you. However, you know that you should raise when you have the best hand. So, why is it out of the question to RAISE (hence, my reply)?

If, indeed, raising is out of the question, you have to acknowledge that you don't have the best hand; I will compromise by acknowledging that you do have the best hand in a game that is somewhat similar to Texas Hold'em, but is not being played in this hand.

So, this boils down to any other situation where you don't have the best hand - do you have odds to draw? And you do. So, you call.

[MEbenhoe]

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Hero isn't drawing... he has the best hand right now.

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if we have 30% chance of winning we clearly don't have the best hand now.

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Don't be a nit; the meaning of the statement is clear.

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it's clear but also wrong


we are definitely drawing to safe outs here. it's an important distinction, I think. IMO the person I was responding to was being a nit.

and don't call me a nit

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Seriously, you're being a nit.

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no he's not. This has been discussed before ad nauseum on here in relation to the Matusow vs Raymer hand from the 2004 world series. No matter what way you try to twist it, the 98 is the best hand. 98 isnt drawing here, A2 is. Those who can't see that have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game.

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Please define "drawing".


By my definition, A-high need not improve to beat 9-high. Therefore 9-high is "drawing" to a better hand.



FWIW, I realize a lot of this discussion has been a debate about semantics (this being one of them).

Adam

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Your A high is drawing to safe cards that will win the pot for it, these cards can be thought of as outs the same way a flush draw on the flop can think of its flush cards as outs. Given that the 98 has a better chance of winning this hand, the A2 can be viewed as the drawing hand, as it is behind. I really wish I could find the post, but Ray Zee (i believe) made a post in the thread about that Raymer vs Matusow hand, explaining exactly why Matusow was actually the one drawing. (I keep referencing this hand because the situation in it is very similar to the one presented in the OP except without the two of them having flipped their cards up)

[einbert]

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are we still discussing this as if the cards were flipped up? if so, not much discussion.

but flipped down, i think its quite a dilemma if BB fires again on lets say a 3 turn.

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If BB bets into me on this flop and I can't see his cards I am folding quickly.

[adamstewart]

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Your A high is drawing to safe cards that will win the pot for it, these cards can be thought of as outs the same way a flush draw on the flop can think of its flush cards as outs.

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wow, THANK YOU!


This is an excellent point that I had not thought of - it really helps me get my head around the concept.

Good post all around too.


Adam

[psyduck]

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Anyone who says fold before the river is totally insane. Do people realize that you only have to pay 1.5 bb to see the river, and you can fold if he improves? This is not interesting, there is no gray area. Call, and fold if the other guy improves.
-James

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