Orleans tourney ruling

judgesmails · #1 07-06-2005, 01:02 AM

I was playing in the Orleans Omaha 8/B tourney Monday and I lost the following hand and the floor ruling left me wondering if they handled it correctly.

I was in BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG, UTG+1, MP, MP2 all call, SB completes and I check.

Flop is: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Betting is capped 4 ways with UTG, MP, MP+1 and myself

Turn is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

All players pay 2 bets

River is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Two more bets apiece

MP+1 has nut low with A2

I table my hand to show my cards, dealer is looking at MP hand and incorrectly calls out 5s full of 3s and mucks my hand - I have 3s full of 8s. Before she could muck the MP hand I notice that he has 3s full of 5s and point it out.

She calls the floor over and tells him that she saw that I had 3s full of 4s, but did not see my 8. Floor asks the table if anyone saw my 8, nobody says they did. Floor rules my hand dead and tells me that he cannot pull my cards out of the muck and cannot call the camera on this ruling.

Dealer apologizes but I am crippled as this was at the $100/200 level and I only have $500 left after this hand and thought it could have been handled differently. How so, I am not sure.

Blackdirt12 · #2 07-06-2005, 01:11 AM

That's bullsh it. The only thing you can do is raise a huge stink and make a complete ass of yourself. Dealers are swine until they prove otherwise. Tip them, be nice, but don't let them muck your hand until you know you're beat.

LLKOOLK1 · #3 07-06-2005, 01:49 AM

I agree, completly rediculous. I have mad a habit to hold onto my cards, phicically in my hand, until I see a definte winner and the chips are pushed to them, or me. Only then do i release the cards from my possesion. This is just a brutal situation, but I am slghtly surprised that they under no circumstances, check the cameras for a limit as high as 100-200? Tough break. Never let go of the cards until you are positive, I like to turn the hand over, but keep it in my hand directly in front of me. Sorry this isnt much help, thats BS.
-$LL$

Randy_Refeld · #4 07-06-2005, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Floor asks the table if anyone saw my 8, nobody says they did. Floor rules my hand dead and tells me that he cannot pull my cards out of the muck and cannot call the camera on this ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you have the floor do? I am guessing when he says he can't pull your cards out of the muck he means they are in the muck and unrecoverable. If they are jsut touching the muck and can be identified he is wrong.

Photoc · #5 07-06-2005, 02:11 AM

Floor ruling is correct. It is the players responsibility to protect your hand which inlcudes at showdown.

But on another point, now you know why people hate the Orleans more and more. Most of the dealers are terrible at Omaha and I've heard this same complaint multiple times from good friends of mine.

judgesmails · #6 07-06-2005, 02:21 AM

Yeah, I don't know what could/should be done. I pointed to my 4 cards and told him those 4 cards were mine and identified what they were (rank and suit) and asked him to pull them out to check. He refused. I then asked if he could have security check the camera and he said no. I thought maybe one or both options were viable, but obviously I don't know. That is why I made the post, hoping to get some feedback from maybe a dealer, floor, or experienced B&M tourney player that would either confirm or question the ruling.

I certainly know better than to trust a dealer to review the hand closely from now on. I have not played much Omaha 8/B in a B&M, mostly play that game online. I was really surprised how most of the dealers struggled with hand reading and running the game.

jedi · #7 07-06-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I have not played much Omaha 8/B in a B&M, mostly play that game online. I was really surprised how most of the dealers struggled with hand reading and running the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once had to correct 3 dealers in a row in a live Omaha game. Be absolutely certain of what you have and what your opponent has before giving up your cards. While dealers are usually right, they're more wrong in Omaha than in Hold Em, for obvious reasons.

Randy_Refeld · #8 07-06-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I don't know what could/should be done. I pointed to my 4 cards and told him those 4 cards were mine and identified what they were (rank and suit) and asked him to pull them out to check.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a different situation. If you are able to point at your cards they weren't properly mucked. In this case he ahould look at the cards if they are as you claim you should be awarded the pot.

Of course making them show you the winner before you release your hand saves all these problems.

MicroBob · #9 07-07-2005, 05:03 AM

Pulling them out of the muck WAS a viable option here since you could identify them and you SHOULD have made a big stink about this.

The chances of them looking at it on the cameras is HIGHLY unlikely though.
There's a very good chance that the hand was never on the cameras in the first place.

Yes...the cameras can find any point in the casino at any time (as always mentioned on those stupid behind the scene programs) but that doesn't mean that every spot really IS being watched at all times. Seriously. It might not even have been on tape at all anyway.

But I would have been positively hyper about pulling them out of the muck if necessary....probably until they tossed me out of the place.
They made a really bad decision here.

I do agree with the idea of protecting your hand even at show-down though. Especially with idiot dealers trying to handle a 4-card game that likely confuses them.

youtalkfunny · #10 07-12-2005, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I don't know what could/should be done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then allow me to help you with that:

Instead of silently turning up your cards, and pushing them in to the dealer so she can read them, why not announce, "I have 3's full of 8's."? Table your hand, with the 83 prominently showing, AND DON'T LET GO OF A SINGLE CARD UNTIL YOU ARE SHOWN (not "told about", but shown) A BETTER HAND.

I love how you guys gripe about the dealers being bad at dealing Omaha/8. YOU try to instantly read six hands that are turned up simultaneously.