anyone like this KK line?

Dommer · #1 08-18-2005, 10:21 PM

Just wondering if you guys think this is good or bad... I had him on like AJ or QQ or a small pp but I couldn't believe he would play a set like that so I pushed hoping to represent an AK bluff.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

BB ($133.15)
UTG ($31.90)
UTG+1 ($100.05)
UTG+2 ($91)
MP1 ($105.65)
MP2 ($154)
MP3 ($54.75)
CO ($28.90)
Button ($17.60)
Hero ($99)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $1, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, Hero (poster) raises to $5.5, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $5, MP3 folds, Button folds.

Flop: ($15) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $9, UTG+2 calls $9.

Turn: ($33) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks.

River: ($33) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero is all-In, UTG+2 calls

Final Pot: $190

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
UTG+2 has Qs Qh (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $190.

Mackerel · #2 08-18-2005, 10:33 PM

I don't know if I like it or not (maintained self-control and haven't looked at results yet). Against some players I love it, and against some I hate, but you haven't told us anything about this guy. You do say this:

[ QUOTE ]
I had him on like AJ or QQ or a small pp

[/ QUOTE ]

But why? Because those are hands you beat? Either you withheld a lot of pertinent information about the villain, or you need to be careful putting people on such a tight range of hands for no reason.

It's not just you. I've seen a lot of posts like this, and I usually just ignore them, but I just feel compelled tonight to ask where these miracle reads are coming from.

Rosie5 · #3 08-18-2005, 10:37 PM

I hate it, badly

you give a free card then push? You got so lucky that he had one of the only hands he'd call you with that you'd beat.

Not sure I have to elaborate any more than that.

BOOOO *throws flaming garbage*

Dommer · #4 08-18-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I like it or not (maintained self-control and haven't looked at results yet). Against some players I love it, and against some I hate, but you haven't told us anything about this guy. You do say this:

[ QUOTE ]
I had him on like AJ or QQ or a small pp

[/ QUOTE ]

But why? Because those are hands you beat? Either you withheld a lot of pertinent information about the villain, or you need to be careful putting people on such a tight range of hands for no reason.

It's not just you. I've seen a lot of posts like this, and I usually just ignore them, but I just feel compelled tonight to ask where these miracle reads are coming from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I thought a set would have reraised the flop or bet the turn.... I guess that's pretty dumb though. I actually didn't know anything about the guy haha... I got really lucky.

Dommer · #5 08-18-2005, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate it, badly

you give a free card then push? You got so lucky that he had one of the only hands he'd call you with that you'd beat.

Not sure I have to elaborate any more than that.

BOOOO *throws flaming garbage*

[/ QUOTE ]

lol ok I get the point

Dommer · #6 08-18-2005, 10:45 PM

Can anyone give a better line? I seem to have an aversion to betting the turn with overpairs.

SideCash · #7 08-18-2005, 10:46 PM

bad play. Usually you will only get called by a hand that beats you. I think 2/3 pot would have been fine on the river, fold to a raise.

Mackerel · #8 08-19-2005, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone give a better line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, try this. 1st, I'd raise more from the SB with that many limpers, say $10-$12 to go. 2nd, if anybody took the flop with me, I pot it on the flop, or nearly at least. Then, if they're still around, the turn is the real decision point. There are several things you need to try to consider in the limited amount of time you have:

1.) Are they likely to be slow playing a monster?

2.) Would they play a decent 2nd best hand this way (like AJ or QQ - this is pretty much a question of how aggro they are)?

3.) Are they donkish enough to be here with a stupid hand like KJ, TT or worse?

4.) If I check, what hands will they bet with?

5.) If I bet, what hands will they call with?

That's a lot to figure out in 15 seconds, but you should at least try to consider them all briefly. If you absolutely have no read on them at all, then you just have to listen to your instincts and go with it. Against an complete unknown in a typical NL100, I most likely check and then evaluate what they do (most likely I fold to a real bet now with no reads). Note though, that you are pretty much at a point here (playing this line) where if you put anymore money in, you are making a committment for your stack, so you either fold to a bet, or make whatever play you feel gives you the best chance to take it down. If you decide to continue, that could be a check-raise all-in, or call a smallish bet and then decide whether to lead the river all-in or make a blocking bet or check/call. If they check behind, usually check again on the river (unless you spike a non-diamond K) and call a moderate bet on a safe card, maybe put in a smallish blocking bet on a diamond.

Of course, there are dozens of other possibilites, but there are no easy answers from the turn on. Playing a big pot OOP with a premium pair is one of the least desirable positions in which to find yourself in NL.

Note that this is the main reason for making the big raise preflop, to avoid tough decisions like this OOP.

Wow, this is the longest post I've made for awhile....been playing some $30+$3 SNG's tonight and I just won two in a row, so I guess I'm just in a good mood. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] You guys can go ahead and flame this line if you want, but I don't have a line I like better w/AA or KK in a spot like that with no reads, and I'd love to hear anybody else's thoughts on it since it is such a tough spot.

anuj · #9 08-19-2005, 12:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]Agreed. If you have an aversion to betting the turn with overpairs, you must have an aversion to money. Looks like he was going to call any amount of money while no overs fell. Get it in there while you can.

[ QUOTE ]
I think 2/3 pot would have been fine on the river, fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]!!!!11eleven. Seriously? I don't think I have enough discipline to throw away KK on that river if I had bet 2/3 of the pot. Why can't a loosy-aggressive QQ raise a bet on the river there?

SideCash · #10 08-19-2005, 12:36 AM

Who said oppenent was LAG? Without any other reads I assume they are not. Plus... does the flop and turn play look like a LAGs style?