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Old 10-20-2005, 02:13 PM
jat850 jat850 is offline
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Default How low do you go? PF flush draw question

I am looking for guidance in adjusting PF play for a VERY passive table. This means no more than 10% hands raised PF and an average of 6-7 players per hand.

This kind of game that I encountered twice last week live in a 2/4 game. It was so passive that people were not raising AK and KK that they showed later. I knew that I could add some hands to my minimum play, but wondered how others would handle the same type of play and conditions. How low do you go in terms of adding flush hands to your playable list pre-flop? Our books tell us what to do for typical loose play but leave it open where we encounter particularly passive play. What are your cut off points in terms of minimum hand and position?
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Old 10-20-2005, 02:16 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: How low do you go? PF flush draw question

Even at a very passive table, you should not really be adding a ton of hands in early and middle position. Think in terms of adding suited connectors and one-gappers, suited Ks, and maybe some good suited Qs in the hijack, cutoff, and button.
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Old 10-20-2005, 02:21 PM
flair1239 flair1239 is offline
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Default Re: How low do you go? PF flush draw question

from the button I will go very low with 5-6 passive limpers. Say 53s, Qxs, J6s, T7s. Stuff like that.
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  #4  
Old 10-20-2005, 02:39 PM
spoohunter spoohunter is offline
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Default Re: How low do you go? PF flush draw question

[ QUOTE ]
I am looking for guidance in adjusting PF play for a VERY passive table. This means no more than 10% hands raised PF and an average of 6-7 players per hand.

This kind of game that I encountered twice last week live in a 2/4 game. It was so passive that people were not raising AK and KK that they showed later. I knew that I could add some hands to my minimum play, but wondered how others would handle the same type of play and conditions. How low do you go in terms of adding flush hands to your playable list pre-flop? Our books tell us what to do for typical loose play but leave it open where we encounter particularly passive play. What are your cut off points in terms of minimum hand and position?

[/ QUOTE ]


What you will realize eventually is that a hand like K4s is not good vs 5 players. It is good vs 5 (or 3) (or 2) extremely loose players, who are playing hands like 104o.

If you pay attention, within an hour or two you will have an idea of their hand range just based on play frequency. Then you will know. So if semi tight lady (playes 24% of her hands) limps in, and 2 play every hand guys limps in (plays 80%) K4s might not be worth a play. Without the semi tight lady, it is. You have to watch them in deciding what hands you want to play. These are tools to use.
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  #5  
Old 10-20-2005, 02:53 PM
Borodog Borodog is offline
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Default Re: How low do you go? PF flush draw question

[ QUOTE ]
from the button I will go very low with 5-6 passive limpers. Say 53s, Qxs, J6s, T7s. Stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. I have to disagree a little bit here. I hate the worse suited cards like 53s and J6s. The problem is that they become one way hands. Because it's down in the wheelhouse, 53 isn't very connected in the sense that it can't make many straights, and of course is very vulnerable to overflushes, which you really have to worry about in a 6 or 7 way hand. The same goes for J6s, except it doesn't make any straights at all.

The lowest I usually go is usually something like 64s, 54s, for 1 and 0 gapped SCs. I play J8s and Q9s, although I know this is tight; J7s and Q8s can't be that much worse. Lots of people play Q2s on the button after many limpers, but I just don't see the EV to justify the variance. I'm actually the same way with suited Kings; I won't play below K9s.
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  #6  
Old 10-20-2005, 02:59 PM
Dagger78 Dagger78 is offline
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Default Re: How low do you go? PF flush draw question

I'd still generally keep it to suited connectors and 2 gappers low as 54s or 85s, Suited Kings from Hijack and back. I'd consider limping with decent offsuited connectors in the CO and Button, maybe 87o and up. You're implied odds make up for the weakness of these hands provided you play well post-flop.

Plus if the game is this passive I'd be limping alot up front, you can't go wrong using the SSHE guildlines for loose table pre-flop play. It pretty much fits this game perfectly.
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  #7  
Old 10-20-2005, 03:12 PM
SeaEagle SeaEagle is offline
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Default Re: How low do you go? PF flush draw question

The SSHE opening recommendations for loose tables (6-8 people seeing the flop) do target the type of table you're talking about. In late position, you won't want to deviate too much from the SSHE table.

In early and middle position, you might be able to add a few hands. If the hand was never raised PF, you'd play almost all the hands in EP that you'd play from the button. At the table you described, you still probably want to throw away stuff like QTo, but you can play a lot of suited connectors and 1 & 2 gappers, knowing you'll get enough limpers behind you to make it worthwhile.
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