Fancy play syndrome - take one

It's almost a chip sandwich, except not. Be nice if you gave us a better idea of the BBs spread. Given no read except that he's done this a few times before, I like the play and think the bet had to be big to prevent a school building behind your AQo.

[Godfather80]

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you could bet $10 here and have same effect IMO

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Agreed. From the Harrington school of getting the most done with the least risk, I think $10 is less risky but with the same effect as $15. In any case, I think it is an interesting play. I just wish you had position. Then again, the hand will most likely be over one way or another after you lead the flop, so maybe position isn't of premium importance here.

[Humble]

I have recently added this kind of play to my game with mixed results - mostly bad. I havent given up on it yet, but I am picking my spots pretty carefully. The spot you described isnt ideal because you dont have position if called, but position is a bit less relevant given that the whole play is premised on picking up the pot preflop. Here is how I think about these opportunities:

What defines the opportunity:

1) A small raise I dont respect followed by a wave of callers with me last or next to last to act

or

2) A wave of callers followed by a minraise followed by a second wave of calling with me last or next to last to act.

Of these two situations the second is clearly much better because most players have had two chances to raise and havent. They have basically announced a weak hand. This is the situation described by Publo, so I think it was a good spot to try it.

Is there a threshold number of callers required to trigger the play? Well at 6 max its pretty much got to be close to a family pot.

Key considerations:

1) Obviously you are trying to pick up the pot on the flop, so your goal is to get everyone to fold right now.
2) Your play is transparent. Even weak players can see what you are trying to do, so the amount you bet has to be enough for people to fold even though they KNOW you are trying to steal their money.
3) As soon as there is a caller its bad news. but not all bad. The pot has been sweetened with all those weak calls.
4) Your job is to figure out if the caller is simply a sherriff or has a real hand.

How to proceed:

The bet has to big enough so that there is now way it will trigger another wave of calling, even if the first person calls. I dont like betting pot here ($10 in this case) its just too small. I think on oversize bet is essential. 2x pot is better. This means that you must win 2/3 times for the play to be profitable. Is 1.5x pot more profitable? It really depends on the callers. The tighter the better.

If called and you dont hit, I agree some kind of continuation bet is required. This is where the play can get expensive. You have built a big pot and its hard to get away from it.

H

[DrPublo]

I agree with many posters that AQo figures to be best here (or at least coinflipping) the vast majority of the time. I just can't see AA KK or QQ being out there after this action, and a villain would have to be absolutely passive to have AK.

Anyeway, I got called in THREE (count'em, 3) places. So now the pot is $60, I'm first to act with about $80 left. I'm pretty much committed.

Flop was 858r.

I pushed (hoping to represent 99+) and the min-raising SB called with 56s. I lose.

The Doc

[Ojo_Rojo]

Ouch. Some names for your buddy list though.
And top marks for table selection. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ojo_Rojo

[BobboFitos]

publo, i like the first part of the hand, im not to thrilled about the second half. (no, not because you got called...)

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nyeway, I got called in THREE (count'em, 3) places. So now the pot is $60, I'm first to act with about $80 left. I'm pretty much committed.

Flop was 858r.

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3 opponents, you have ace high, they liked their hands enough to call 15 pf. give it up. you're not committed. you dont have the best hand. they wont fold. no shame. first part was great. this part is not.

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Probably you can do this with 10 and that would be just as good, in case somebody wakes up with a hand.

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[DrPublo]

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publo, i like the first part of the hand, im not to thrilled about the second half. (no, not because you got called...)

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You don't think my line looks like a pair 66-99? I think those opponents need an 8 to call my push.

Also, I agree that my preflop line is designed to end the hand there, but given that the pot is now sizeable AND i'm the aggressor, I feel like I have an obligation to make a play at it. Since I'm the aggressor, the pressure is on the other players to hit the flop, and on a 858 flop I think an opponent needs an 8 or an overpair to call. I just dont see that from any of the villains.

The Doc

[Triumph36]

Or a pair like 66-99 could easily call your push - remember, they called a pre-flop 3-bet to 15, do they really believe you have AA? I don't like the push, but yes I like the pre-flop play - I despise min-raisers, especially the type that buy in short-handed and still manage to control the table with their silly play.

[BobboFitos]

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publo, i like the first part of the hand, im not to thrilled about the second half. (no, not because you got called...)

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You don't think my line looks like a pair 66-99? I think those opponents need an 8 to call my push.

Also, I agree that my preflop line is designed to end the hand there, but given that the pot is now sizeable AND i'm the aggressor, I feel like I have an obligation to make a play at it. Since I'm the aggressor, the pressure is on the other players to hit the flop, and on a 858 flop I think an opponent needs an 8 or an overpair to call. I just dont see that from any of the villains.

The Doc

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this is all well and good, but to be results oriented, villain called with 56. My point was once they've made the preflo pcommittment, it's tough envisioning a small pair (underpair, overpair, 5, etc.) laying down.

and, w/3 opponents, too likely you'll run into atleast one who can call.