Flop nut flush draw, turn pairs board, Villains get aggressive.

Worrots · #1 04-19-2005, 01:55 PM

Reads w/ ~ 40 hands each:

UTG - 32/0/0.25, LPP
MP2 - 46/18/0.67, LAP
Button - 39/7/2.71, LAG

Need feedback on the turn play.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, Button caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

River: (23 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds (!).

Final Pot: 30 BB

My thought process:

Flop - nut flush draw with 7 players, bet out. Don't want this to check through. My table image is tight, why not advertise strength? Standard, yes?

Turn: Board pairs, lots of players left. Feel like I played this badly.

Turn Decision 1: bet out again or not?
- I need to improve to win a showdown. Lots of flop callers may indicate lots of heart outs already gone. With this table, Kx will call me down.
- But if I show strength again, may get baby flushes and trips/two pair to fold. No reason to fear KK or TT at this point.

I check -- LAP (!) bets, 1 caller, LAG button raises. Turn decision 2: 10 BB in the pot, 5:1, I call. Why? Don't respect the LAG raise after I pulled back on the turn, still could be drawing to the best hand vs a made lower flush, implied odds, no one raised preflop so discount KK/TT, maybe I induced a bluff. Or just bad play.

Decision 3: it's capped back to me with a huge pot and I make a crying call at 9:1 hoping the players behind me call and planning to get out of the way if I miss the River.

Since I was willing to put 4 bets in anyway, perhaps I should have led out the turn, represented the made flush, and seen the river cheaper.

River: I make my hand. Obviously, I'm not folding with this pot and only losing to a full house or quads. Given the turn action and the number of players left, I'm also not putting in more than I must to see a showdown. Call down wondering if I'll see K5 from the LAG or TT from the LPP.

Thoughts on any and all streets?

kapw7 · #2 04-19-2005, 02:09 PM

You have a very strong hand. You shouldn't play passively. In this case you are fine b/c the other 2 are doing the betting for you but generally you lose money by not betting when strong.

MP2 folded ? Excellent!

DeadRed · #3 04-19-2005, 02:25 PM

The flop bet is good.

On the turn it is difficult to lay down your A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], even when the board pairs, but I don't think a check here is bad. You want to see the river for as little as possible, it just so happened that it cost you all 4 bets. I would think your holding to be pretty obvious given your betting out, then calling all the bets, but then what the heck does UTG have? Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

After you make your flush, the pot is so big that you have to pay off the boat. I like the (!) notation on MP2's fold. I put him on A5s when that happens, but Button? K5s? TT? Slowplayed KK? Overplaying KT? He has to realize that you and UTG probably hold the A and Q.

I think you played it correctly, you just got beat this time. That's poker.

istewart · #4 04-19-2005, 02:29 PM

I think it's pretty clear MP2 had trip fives. His fold isn't that insane, or even insane it all.

Firefly · #5 04-19-2005, 02:31 PM

Flop bet--goot
turn-- Yup. Gotta call, i'm not QUITE ready to give him credit for the boat. Leading the turn isn't all that good here, because having someone raise and blow out everyone out of the pot sucks the big one.
river-- MR Lag is probally going bonkers with a 5, he doesn't need the boat to do this with those agression numbers. I probally would have c/r'ed one bet but you can call with two cold to you.

atnels · #6 04-19-2005, 02:36 PM

I like the flop bet. HUGE pot equity edge here, so the more $ in the pot, the better for you. You probably won't be able to get in a reraise in without thinning the field given your position, but who knows. Maybe the LAG raises you and everyone cold calls - I've seen stranger things.

I believe I would have led the turn, as well. This might not be the best line, but I like to be aggressive. This might have greatly changed the way the turn action played out - who knows.

Given the way it played out:

Getting 5:1 a call is okay even after the raise. You have ~20% chance of catching the 4th heart on the river but I would discount that slightly given that you could be drawing dead to a house. I'm not ready to give anyone credit for TT, K5, or T5 though. Granted, the flopped 3-flush probably would have scared anyone with these holdings into just calling to wait until the turn, but you can't automatically fear the worst when someone shows strength. I think you'll see trip 5s here or Button just being a donk more than anything. When it comes back to you capped, again you can easily call. But, at this point I start to think more about the possibility of being toast to a house.

Were you going for overcalls on the river? Or did you think you might have been beat? This might be spewing, but I would probably reraise.

atnels · #7 04-19-2005, 02:39 PM

These numbers are only over 40 hands. If you picked just 40 hands from any of us, you could probably make us seem either like a total LAG or ultra tight-passive.

But I agree with you read that if Button is a donk than I'm not stressing too much about his turn aggression. How many times have you seen a player cap a scary board for absolutely no reason?

Worrots · #8 04-19-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty clear MP2 had trip fives. His fold isn't that insane, or even insane it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bet with trip 5s only to fold to a raise when he could've closed the action? He could have checked, let Button bet which is clearly happening given the turn play, and seen the showdown for just 1 bet. Or folded if it was raised before it got back to him. He can't be expecting to get the rest of the table to fold for 1 on the river and the button just capped him on the turn.

I agree he may well have had trip 5s, but, if so, he played the river oddly.

McGahee · #9 04-19-2005, 02:54 PM

I'm not an expert on river play myself, but I think you played the turn fine. You usually don't get as many callers on 4th street, so you're rarely making $ for every bet that goes in unless you already have a pair or something. It just so happened that MP and button both liked their hand and thus you end up looking like the calling station; but who cares? You did what you had to do; you had odds to call but not enough equity to raise.
The flop is obviously fine.

@bsolute_luck · #10 04-19-2005, 03:04 PM

i've read responses and i'm wondering why no one suggests capping this river?

you read Button as a LAG, but you don't think he'll bet preflop with TT or KK? Even MP2 has some preflop aggression (i think i'm reading their stats right).

UTG i guess is our concern at this point?