Flop low flush w/ lots of limpers

Worrots · #1 01-08-2005, 07:42 PM

I'm pretty sure I misplayed this horribly. First hand at the table with no reads, posting in the big blind with 5c3c. Flop makes my flush with straight draws and face cards making it probable for lots of limpers to stay in the hand and I just call down the SB instead of raising. I was afraid of a higher made flush or the board four-suiting (though the odds of this are low given my cards), but isn't this just about the optimal flop for me and therefore shouldn't I be raising?

Please berate me for the passivity if appropriate.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (9 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

River: (15 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets $0.45 (All-In), Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Shillx · #2 01-08-2005, 07:43 PM

Raise the flop. Raise the turn. River call is okay I guess. I'm busy now but I'll explain why if you want some insight. I'm sure others will elaborate more.

Brad

Calling the flop is okay too BTW, but raising is probably better from an EV standpoint.

Hack · #3 01-08-2005, 07:46 PM

You have to raise the flop and turn. The chances of SB having a flush here are very low. More likely he is betting the bare Ace of clubs or a pair.

the_rookie · #4 01-08-2005, 07:47 PM

I like calling the flop too and wait for a turn safe card to pop the field with a raise.

Worrots · #5 01-08-2005, 08:06 PM

Raising the flop for value and to create bad pot odds for the higher flush draw, yes? This would make the pot 12 SBs with 2 SBs to call. With 6 clubs accounted for (flop 3, me 2, opponent 1) a club on the turn is 7/47 = worse than the pot odds. Plus the made straights and draws are likely to come along in microlimits.

On the other hand, no guarantee that lots of limpers will cold call two bets and so building the pot might work better if I wait till the turn to raise.

Hmm. So, better chance to win the hand if I raise the flop, but bigger pot overall if only call and wait to raise.

Hack · #6 01-08-2005, 08:08 PM

Dude.

Don't worry about "creating bad pot odds for the flush draw". The Ace club is not going to fold, and he shouldn't fold even if it's capped on both the flop and turn. Look how many people are still in on the turn. That provides PLENTY of overlay for the Ace of clubs to stay in the hand till the river.

Just raise the flop and turn. If another club comes on the turn or river then you are probably [censored] but there is a good chance that this won't happen.

You don't wait till the turn to protect your hand with a flush. You do it with hands like top pair and overpairs.

Shillx · #7 01-08-2005, 08:19 PM

Ok you seem a bit confused so now that I am away from the tables I'll explain in more detail.

Advantages of raising the flop:

1) People with a pair (of kings) will call two cold drawing almost dead. Getting dead money in this pot will soften the blow if it comes down real bad on the turn/river.

2) No one is folding the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or even the J/T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], so you can't worry about them. The good thing though is that these cards might not be out there (but with 9 people seeing the flop, their is a better chance that there is). But lets say that someone is holding 88 w/ a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and will call for one bet and will fold for two on the flop. Getting this person out is certianly advantageous.

3) You make lots of $$$ when big [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]'s call two bets cold. Notice that if someone has the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and someone else has the J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], the jack is drawing almost stone cold dead so you make lots of money when he calls all the way. Only one player can be drawing live against your flush (to a bigger flush), so you will get lots of people drawing to losing flushes.

Reasons to call the flop:

1) If a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] slides on 4th, you will happy that you didn't put in a lot of bets on the flop.

2) If a non-[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hits on the turn, you can push a larger edge against the biggest club. You can also get big bets against the dead draws who are drawing to lower flushes (notice that they probably aren't drawing dead in this case because of the straight flush draw).

3) If you call the flop and someone makes 2 pair on the turn, they will not fold and will put lots of money into the pot drawing to just 4 outs. If you raise the flop, they might fold (say bottom or mid pair) there drawing almost stone dead.

Brad

Hack · #8 01-08-2005, 08:21 PM

I think the important thing to remember is that there is nothing he can do to force out the Ace of clubs, which could be out there with this many people in the hand.

Kasumeat · #9 01-08-2005, 08:52 PM

I really don't like raising the flop here in this position. We absolutely cannot protect our hand here. Kx may even fold.

Raising the turn instead means we're probably getting more money in the pot, and more importantly, may actually get a bigger club to fold. This pot is too big at this point to continue to slow play, and our primary concern now is getting better clubs to fold.