Trainwreck of a poker career...where do I go from here?

[MikeRand2000]

Hi all-

Well, I'm fed up. I started playing last November and since then I've proceeded to lose about $200 playing various different games.

1) After reading SSH, I thought I'd be able to master $0.50/$1.00 Party limit. Nope. -$200, and I don't even think I knew what was going on, despite being able to recite half of the book in my sleep.

2) After deciding that I hated having flushes and straights catch up to me, I started in on 22 and 11 NL sit-n-gos. Due to an INCREDIBLE run of luck and the amazing book that is HOH, I was able to break even. Recently I've been stuck in the 4th-7th place rut (I'm apparently too much of a wimp to go out in 8th-10th).

I've read Hold'em, HEPFAP, SSH, TOP, TPFAP, HOH, SSH, WLLH, Poker Essays 1-3, Inside the Poker Mind, The Psychology of Poker...basically anything 2+2 has put out. I understand the math behind the concepts I'm reading about (semi bluffs, pot equity, etc.). I just can't seem to apply it. Truth is I can't even tell whether or not I'm applying it because I don't know how to take a step back and evaluate my play.

Has anyone here had similar experiences? Did you keep powering through, or did you just start over and try to relearn everything from the beginning? Any tips on how to take a time out and really analyze your play in a methodical way> I just don't know where to go from here and I'm afraid that I might do more damage than good if I don't figure stuff out now.

Anyway, any advice/comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
After deciding that I hated having flushes and straights catch up to me

[/ QUOTE ].

This doesn't always happen as I'm sure you know, but you need to learn to love the fishies. There are fish in NL as well.

I recommend going through WLLH with a highlighter.

[skoal2k4]

I think you might be flooded with all the info. from all the books that you've read. You might be trying to apply all the principles without really understanding them. Also, you can read every book in the world about poker and think you have a strong understanding of that book, but until you actual sit there and play the game and come accross some of those situations, you just won't truly "get it".

To start, you might want to focus on one form of Hold'em.. there's subtle differences between the different forms of the game (Limit ring, NL ring, NL MTT, NL SNG) so the learning experience will take longer if you try to learn them all at once. Stick to Party .5/1 Limit. Learn how to beat that game, then move up in limits. Develop patience and learn to love people chasing flushes and straights. If a hand is bothering you, post the hand in the micro-limit forum. Those guys will really help ya out. You might be giving the person chasing flushes the proper odds to chase it without even knowing it.

If someone sucks out on you and it really pisses you off, you might want to analyze the hand. See if you could've played it differently. Maybe you should've called instead of raised on the flop? stuff like that. If you feel you've done everything right, then be happy that the other guy made the wrong calls and he just got lucky.

anyway... gl to ya

[Pinga]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone here had similar experiences? Did you keep powering through, or did you just start over and try to relearn everything from the beginning? Any tips on how to take a time out and really analyze your play in a methodical way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

Most if not all of us lost when we started. As long as it's not your bill money, $200 isn't bad for lessons.

Maybe you should play micro-limits while you are learning. I don't know anything about sites/selection, but poke around or ask on the micro forum. I wish I knew there was a .05/.10 game when I started.

Reading the books is clearly a good plan, but it takes a lot of time on the tables for things to sink in. How many hands have you played? Do you have Poker Tracker to keep track of your results?

I'm just a beginner at the 2/4 level, but if you want you can send me some hand histories and I will look them over. I'll probably learn as much as you from the process.

The two most obvious things to look at are poor card selection preflop and staying in too long on losing hands.

Best,
Pinga

[LSUfan1]

[ QUOTE ]
2) After deciding that I hated having flushes and straights catch up to me

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where game texture comes into play. You are playing with a large number of fish at this level who will draw to everything. You must take this into consideration and start to add some strong drawing hands to your arsenal. Especially in late position you should be playing more suited connectors, and even one and 2 gappers. The loose games are notorious for suckouts, and you need to react accordingly.

[sgfried]

Mike,

I have played "friday night poker" for 25 years and have developed ALOT of bad habits that I am trying to break, and am now starting over to become a true poker player. I am reading just like you are. I agree with LSU, I have noticed that if you have a loose player or 2 then correct strategy can be a powerful tool. HOWEVER, micro games will have 7 out of the 10 players on a table call your reraise when they are out of position because thier 8,4 is suited. "Making a play" that a better player will interpret and respect, bounces off thier heads. And usually 1 if not MORE of them will hit something and you are the third best hand after the turn when you should have won it outright with your reraise after the flop. I look for who is aggressive, who is passive and what thier tendancies are. I usually will smooth call the aggressive players with good drawing hands, or when I hit 2 pair or a set after the flop etc.. Do I get sucked out sometimes, you bet. But, most of the time I make up for those suckouts and they pay dearly to see the river, and most just either cannot resist seeing the last card (cause its THE ONE) or they automatically think I am trying to buy the pot. I do much better in live games with players who know whats going on, yet find myself swearing at the computer when 2,3 suited catches up to my pocket Q's. Thats just the way it goes. Keep your chin up and don't be so regemented with "the walking clueless", cause they pay the bills.

[revots33]

I think, for a newbie, reading too many books all at once is just information overload. It makes you overthink, and probably causes more problems than it helps.

Read Lee Jones' book. I found it to be the best and simplest book for beginners. That book alone should have you beating low-limit games. Then later you can add the more advanced techniques from Sklansky etc. to your arsenal.

Two simple but good pieces of advice:

If you have nothing, get out. Or as Lee Jones puts it, Look for a reason to fold. When I first started I almost never drew to overcards. As a beginner you won't lose much if you just play tight and bet only when the flop hits you or you have an excellent draw to a big hand.

If you have the best hand, make them pay. You have to raise and re-raise your big hands even though you will get sucked out on occasionally. And re-read especially Jones' advice on the check-raise, as it is one of the few tools that allows you to force your opponents to overpay for their draws. Play tight-aggressive poker. Otherwise you will be giving cheap or free cards which is a cardinal sin in poker. Good luck!

[SheridanCat]

Have you been using PokerTracker? Even if you don't want to buy it, download it and try out the 1000 hands you get free. If you're playing party, you have the hand histories, load them up in PT.

Then, post a few hands where you question your play or where something happened you don't fully understand. You can post a couple here if you want, but most hand histories should go in the small stakes or micro forums.

There's an excellent chance that you've taken in too much information and are misapplying concepts. Playing .50/1.00, a $200 downswing - especially just starting out - over a number of months is pretty minor. It may not be an insignificant sum for you, but at those limits it's a little small for a beginner. You might try PokerStars or UltimateBet since they have lower limits than that.

You won't be a winning player overnight. My records indicate that since November 2000, I'm a moderate winner at the limits I play. However, when I first started, I lost big-time since I had really no idea what I was doing. I still don't know what I'm doing, but I know a little more than I did then.

Stick to it if you're comfortable with the knowledge that you might continue to lose for awhile. It's the price we all pay.

Also, read the FAQ below if you haven't.

Regards,

T

Beginner's Poker FAQ

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wish I knew there was a .05/.10 game when I started.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading the books is clearly a good plan, but it takes a lot of time on the tables for things to sink in. How many hands have you played? Do you have Poker Tracker to keep track of your results?

[/ QUOTE ]

That right there, is about the best advice u can get.

Give u a little history lesson, maybe it will help, maybe it might put u on a better path...here goes:

I started at PokerStars, deposited 50 bucks -- lost it right quick down to about 9 dollars on the .05/.10 tables, then shot up to 60 then back down to 17. Blew most of that on rebuy tournies, was down to .95 cents. I learned to play elsewhere, othersites, reading books, put in tons of table time -- couple months go by and Im doing pretty well (hell Im at 3/6 right now, and I also prop as a job)

So about 3 weeks ago I go back to PS and so far have turned that .95 into about $65 (over about 2000-3000 hands I think, not sure on the figure). So Im in the process of building that 1st 50 back into another PS site bankroll for 3/6 and above. When I first started, not possible, I would win, lose, up and down, it was erratic as hell. Everyday the figure is going up, hit a bad streak one day then ended 5.00 up from where I started, after 8 hours of play. lol.

Point is...dont start at party, I think .5/1 is too high of a limit if u dont have that much money to drop and u want to learn, start low, re-read those books, read hands and advice here...get pokertracker (this wont instantly make u a god of poker, but it will tell u right quick in numerical form if you are playing to many hands, what your showdowns are, winrate, etc. Best thing u can buy for your game besides the books. And once u learn of Playerview and how to use it in conjunction with Pokertracker on Party...rewards will be sweet.)

and you should stick to learning one form of holdem at a time. You could probably do alright at low-NL games, just nut peddle, get it cheap with flush/straight possibilities, learn how much to bet...etc. There are nuances to NL but to me its much easier than limit. I say learn limit then move on, once u are moving up the levels beating them at a good clip, then u can get carefree and try and taste the other forms poker has to offer.

PS I was on party and down 50bb last night because the cards would hit me, but someone else would make better. Example, flop nut flush, guy with JJ hits his set on turn, I know its the only thing he could have, river pairs a flop card giving him a FH to my Ace high spade flush. It happens. That one was not so bad as others.

Just play a good game, dont go to far with weak draws, fold out of small pots if need be, have a grasp of what hands do what so u have good preflop play (which u can loosen up on once u sharpen post flop skills) --- and MOST IMPORTANTLY: APPLY THE MATHMATICS TO YOUR PLAY. Know the odds of cards to hit, pot odds, pot equity (so u can raise for value), know how to count PARTIAL and HIDDEN outs (very important so u can apply the correct value to your hand) -- and if u dont have odds, FOLD (unless its just close enough to take one off...still small pot, fold weak draws, its not worth it) -- this will help u from hemmoraging money. The cards may run bad or good, either way this will help u from going to far with weak hands, even AK-AJ. etc.

So right now: Put 50 bucks in PS or UB and learn. The low limit tables may suck the life out of u...but if u cant beat them, well then u have to learn how to do it. Treat .05/.10 how u would if the stakes were higher...move up the limits once u have 300BB for the next. It will be frustrating, not being able to win, but it takes time to let everything soak in. Even Phil Ivey had to learn. It takes time.

Poker Samurai -- Smasharoo

Check out this blog, it may help u. This is a higher limit player that started with 50 bucks on PS and his goal was to turn it into a 1000. He got up to day 33 and stopped posting (this site only goes to day 23 -- u have to do a search on www.fullcontactpoker.com to find the rest of his posts - his user name is SMASHAROO) -- anyway its half finished but he did get to the 1000. Now he wants to do 1000-20,000 project. Read the blog and pay attention to his play, its solid SSHE play...it will probably help some of the concepts soak in.

[jacksrule]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike,

HOWEVER, micro games will have 7 out of the 10 players on a table call your reraise when they are out of position because thier 8,4 is suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL- I had to reply to this comment because of a funny situation that came up recently. I had AKs UTG raised to 4X the blind with FOUR callers(six handed). Flop of K,3,5 rainbow. All fold but the button calls. 7 on turn,button checks and i punish what i assume is a dominated king with a pot sized bet. Bet is called. 6 on the river. Button immediately puts a pot size bet in, I can only assume Ive been sucked out on by a K-4, but I call. Player shows me 8-4 OFFSUIT!!!! That's poker baby.