pocket pairs as drawing hands

[EMcWilliams]

I know that it is very rare that there can be any generalizations in poker, and if this question seems too general and just plain ignorant, then I apologize. However, at what point in hands in NL Hold'em do pocket pairs no longer really become hands that you are drawing for a set and more are playing just the pair itself.

For example, when you play deuces, you are playing that as a drawing hand to a set, but aces your playing as a pair of aces.

I know there are examples where you have 99 and the flop is all low cards, so you are playing the overpair. My question is more towards pre-flop play in any position.

[doubleplus]

[ QUOTE ]
I know there are examples where you have 99 and the flop is all low cards, so you are playing the overpair. My question is more towards pre-flop play in any position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but in response: You'll only be calling pre-flop with small pairs in late position, and occasionally in mid. You'll be folding them if someone raised in front of you. This is because it's less *likely* that they'll have value as pairs if you miss your set. Everything else is determined post-flop by whether you hit the set or if you have an overpair. I don't know what pre-flop guide you follow, but the only pairs that I'll almost definitely see the flop with are 10's and up.

[EMcWilliams]

I know my question is a bit confusing, I am really just trying to ask is that if your play you pocket pairs, which ones are you more looking to hit a set with( much like a drawing hand) and which ones will you play as just a high pair

[PokerFink]

There isn't really a correct answer to this question. Depending on how you feel about your opponents, and whether you can outplay them on the flop, you should play pairs more or less aggressively.

If you want a more solid answer, you're playing QQ-AA as big pairs, JJ as a big pair if you can open raise with it from mid-late position and TT as a big pair if you can open raise with it from late position.

[Mister Z]

I know what you're saying and it seems there is a weird hump right around pocket 8's that can be tricky. I've just recently found that I'm overplaying pocket 8's and they've become the biggest losing hand of all for me (given this is only after 4K hands, they'll probably find their way back to profitability eventually... I hope). I think it depends on you ability to read the board and more importantly your opponents in regards to pocket 8's and 7's and even 9's. I usually just regard 7's and 8's as drawing hands depending on the action, number of opponents, etc. I guess the clear cut answer is that there is no clear cut answer as most situations will be relatively unique.

[CMonkey]

There is no distinct dividing line between pairs as drawing hands and pairs as made hands. It depends entirely on your opponents and your position. It's not as though 99 (or whatever) is clearly a weak made hand while 88 is clearly a strong drawing hand; all pairs have elements of both properties in various degrees. That's one of the reasons AA is so powerful after all; it is both a strong made hand and a strong drawing hand (at least drawing from the preflop to the flop).

[Cobra]

I personally use JJ as my cutoff. The reason is that 48.2% of the time you will flop top pair or a set. You can play this quite aggresively on the flop. Another 38.6% of the time there will be only one overcard.

[EMcWilliams]

ok, thanks, I was reading HoH today and he had mentioned that 22 is more of a drawing hand, so i was just wondering where you all felt the GENERAl cut off was. (I've had arguements over friends about generalizations in poker, but I thought this was an acceptable area to do so a little)

[Ace_Ren]

From Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones:

Assuming no raises in front of you -

Early Position:
Raise with AA-JJ
Call with TT-77

Middle Position:
Raise with AA-88
Call with 77-55
If 4 or more callers - call with 44-22

Late position - same as middle in this regard.


Is that right? Who knows, but that's the recommendation from a generally well respected book. Basically, if he's saying raise, then you've got a pair that he thinks will hold up. If he says to call, then you are drawing for that set.

Even what I just said is very much an overgeneralization. In late position, if there's 5 callers (for example), don't bother raising with 88, it's a drawing hand now.

So, a few factors need to be taken in.
Hand rank - with JJ+ almost always being considered for value on its own

# of opponents - more opponents means that you will need a better hand to win, forcing many more pairs to become drawing pairs up to QQ at times (although I'd still raise to try to limit the field of opponents and turn it back into a made pair).

Position - The knowledge you gain from being in late position will often tell you that your pair is indeed good on the flop. Even down to 66 or 55 these pairs can be played as made pairs if you're in late position with few or no callers.

[pollyson]

first no ignorant questions..just ignorant people..and this question is in my opinion a good one...

As far as pps...early in a tourney anyhting 99 and lower is really a drawing hand and you should be willing to fold QQ and down preflop if need be...that being said when the blinds become worth fighting for in relation to your stack is when you should start to gamble with a PP...if the "free money" in the pot is significant enough to add a decent % of $$ to your stack i think you should reraise in order to get heads up with them...the only times i recomend calling in this situation is when there are 4 or 5 people already in the pot for a raise..in that spot it is good to play any pp thats not paint as a drawing hand and try to set on the flop...The reasons for this are as follows: you are assured action if you happen to hit your set if an ace or king comes along with it...you are able to get away cheap if your pair doesnt improve b/c its likely that your pair is no good to begin with...being heads up in late position to a raise i like to decide preflop whether i think