AA gets C/R'd on the turn -- what to do?

jtr · #1 10-16-2004, 10:49 AM

Hi, all.

This hand is meant to illustrate a wider question about aggression, and whether it's appropriate to keep on being aggressive into the face of aggression from your opponents in online low limit ganes.

I've been playing 2/4 for some weeks now (small sample size, I know, but bear with me) and I've been trying to keep some records on what a turn raise or a river 3-bet, etc., usually mean coming from typical Party 2/4 players. In the hand below, I have AA and play it as you would expect. Then, on the turn I get check-raised. I think that a while back, under the influence of a poor reading of Ed Miller, I would have 3-bet the turn here, putting the other guy on something like AK (which is plausible). However, my note-taking on what turn raises usually mean indicated that the guy was around 80% likely to be holding two pair or trips -- the average 2/4 player is pretty passive postflop and when they wake up and C/R you it means they have the goods much more often than not. So I went immediately into check-call mode.

Is this wrong? Is a recent bad run of cards making me fear monsters under the bed in a very -EV way? I'd particularly welcome any general comments people have on what they've found different bets and raises to indicate on Party 2/4 (no doubt the meaning of a turn raise is much different at 5/10 or 15/30).

Thanks for your input.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
Main Pot: 11 BB, between Hero and SB.

Wired Jokers · #2 10-16-2004, 11:23 AM

I have a lot of trouble in this situation, and I hope some other posters weigh in as well. After reading Ed's book, I hate to crawl into a shell on the turn, especially against the typical Party $2-$4 or $3-$6 player. But in this situation, I think you are behind.

On the flop, heads-up, SB bets into you on a very ragged board. He is not maniacal. This gives me an indication that he has a Jack with a kicker higher than an 8. The raise is of course standard.

When you get checkraised, his hand can probably be narrowed to either K,J or a set of sixes or sevens. Thus, you either have eight outs or two outs. For me, there is enough doubt in this situation to call down from here.

Funny thing is, if I were the SB, I would probably play K,J suited or a flopped set exactly the same way SB did in this situation.

My bigger problem in reading this situation occurs if the flop was more coordinated with a straight or flush draw. If SB is a competent player, would a three-bet on the turn be more appropriate?

StellarWind · #3 10-16-2004, 11:26 AM

You played this correctly. He is clearly signalling two pair or better on the turn. You need to verify this claim (also you have outs) but there is no reason to put any extra bets in. Just call him down.

StellarWind · #4 10-16-2004, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My bigger problem in reading this situation occurs if the flop was more coordinated with a straight or flush draw. If SB is a competent player, would a three-bet on the turn be more appropriate?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. This is Party 2/4. I'll believe in the semibluff turn checkraise with a flush draw when I see it. The reality is that he usually has two pair or a set and I just lost 2 BB when he caps.

SteveC702 · #5 10-16-2004, 11:41 AM

Based on the notes you have of the player, and the fact that most players at this level aren't that sophiscated, check-calling seems to be the right play.

colgin · #6 10-16-2004, 11:46 AM

When you raise pre-flop people will include AK as one of your possible hands. When you get check-raised on the turn when a King falls your opponent is "telling" you that he can beat TPTK. That does not mean you should fold here. Your opponent could be bluffing or just playing bad thinking that his pair of Kings with medium kicker is best. So you must call this down with your pair of Aces. But re-raising when you are quite likely behind is also wrong.

Entity · #7 10-16-2004, 11:58 AM

Does anyone consider raising the river here? I hate getting 3-bet, but I'd like to earn an extra bet when KJ is out there. Are 66/77 hands to worry about often enough to make raising the river -EV?

I really need to work on my head's up play.

Rob

colgin · #8 10-16-2004, 12:06 PM

Yes, if your opponent had KJ he just got counterfeited. However, I think there is enough of a chance that you are up against a set or trips here to make just calling the better move.

Entity · #9 10-16-2004, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, if your opponent had KJ he just got counterfeited. However, I think there is enough of a chance that you are up against a set or trips here to make just calling the better move.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trips doesn't make sense, since he wouldn't c/r with just a 6. That leaves J6, K6, 66 (all unlikely), KJ and 77.

I often just call this down, but I'm still wondering...

Rob

jtr · #10 10-16-2004, 12:29 PM

Don't mean to sway anyone with the results, but it turned out to be a set of jacks and my hand was not good.

Thanks very much, all, for the advice. I was seriously expecting to be told by some people that I played this like a schoolgirl; it is a relief to hear that most of you would take the same line.