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#111
10-07-2005, 06:54 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
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The finitude and relativity of man, which MUST be admitted by anyone who can think at all, precludes the possibility of man giving absolute meaning. [/ QUOTE ] Why must man give "absolute meaning" in order to create values for man? Dogs don't kill themselves or each other aimlessly and don't creat absoulte meaning, but still value their own life -- but yet beyond this is an impossibility for man? Believe what you want. 
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#112
10-07-2005, 07:20 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
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Thanks. I thought I might have read N. wrong. I'm sure now I had him right. And the point I keep drumming on is that if God doesn't exist there are no absolutes. If chance is ultimate, reason is absurd. I'm not the only one who thinks this. I've quoted from Bertie Russell to the same effect. I can find where Sartre also says this. It's famous as the "pessimism of the 20th century". London wrote novels about it. This is not new. This is the question. How can there be meaning in a meaningless universe. The finitude and relativity of man, which MUST be admitted by anyone who can think at all, precludes the possibility of man giving absolute meaning. [/ QUOTE ] One thing you are overlooking is that if N is right and God does not and never did exist, man can indeed create meaning for himself since that is what he had been doing all along; the illusion of God was the meaning man created. You can make the assertion that if God doesn't exist there is no meaning, but the fact that if one makes the assertion that God has never existed -- that God is a creation of man -- and it can easily be shown that people did indeed find meaning in their lives during the period when the man made belief in God gave life meaning, your assertion falls apart.
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#113
10-07-2005, 07:20 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The finitude and relativity of man, which MUST be admitted by anyone who can think at all, precludes the possibility of man giving absolute meaning. [/ QUOTE ] Why must man give "absolute meaning" in order to create values for man? Dogs don't kill themselves or each other aimlessly and don't creat absoulte meaning, but still value their own life -- but yet beyond this is an impossibility for man? Believe what you want. [/ QUOTE ] NotReady is not saying “that man must give absolute meaning in order to create values for man.” He is saying (implying) you can have all the values you want. Just don’t say they are absolutes. He also is not speaking against folk holding any and all values they want. All is he saying is don’t be hypocritical about it. If I want to commit murder, don’t say it is wrong. (You can say, "In my opinon it is wrong to murder". But just so you keep in mind - opinions are like a..holes, we all got 'em.) No one can impose their values on others. Without absolutes everything (values wise) becomes subjective. You can’t impose your values on others by decree. (You can impose collective values on others within any society, sure, and by any means necessary. We all basically sign a contract that we agree to/with the values of the society we leave in. It doesn't mean anyone has to actually hold the same values - one only has to abide to them.) It really isn't (well to me, at least) a hard concept to understand.
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#114
10-07-2005, 07:25 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
[ QUOTE ]
One thing you are overlooking is that if N is right and God does not and never did exist, man can indeed create meaning for himself since that is what he had been doing all along; the illusion of God was the meaning man created. You can make the assertion that if God doesn't exist there is no meaning, but the fact that if one makes the assertion that God has never existed -- that God is a creation of man -- and it can easily be shown that people did indeed find meaning in their lives during the period when the man made belief in God gave life meaning, your assertion falls apart. [/ QUOTE ] I don’t think NotReady says this either. He does not say you cannot have meaning in your life. Have all the meaning you want. It will never be absolute or universal is all. We each have our own meaning or lack there of in our own lives.
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#115
10-07-2005, 07:29 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] One thing you are overlooking is that if N is right and God does not and never did exist, man can indeed create meaning for himself since that is what he had been doing all along; the illusion of God was the meaning man created. You can make the assertion that if God doesn't exist there is no meaning, but the fact that if one makes the assertion that God has never existed -- that God is a creation of man -- and it can easily be shown that people did indeed find meaning in their lives during the period when the man made belief in God gave life meaning, your assertion falls apart. [/ QUOTE ] I don’t think NotReady says this either. He does not say you cannot have meaning in your life. Have all the meaning you want. It will never be absolute or universal is all. We each have our own meaning or lack there of in our own lives. [/ QUOTE ] I'd like to hear his response to this.
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#116
10-07-2005, 07:37 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
[ QUOTE ]
NotReady is not saying “that man must give absolute meaning in order to create values for man.” He is saying (implying) you can have all the values you want. Just don’t say they are absolutes. [/ QUOTE ] Except nobody is speaking in absolutes but him.
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#117
10-07-2005, 07:39 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] One thing you are overlooking is that if N is right and God does not and never did exist, man can indeed create meaning for himself since that is what he had been doing all along; the illusion of God was the meaning man created. You can make the assertion that if God doesn't exist there is no meaning, but the fact that if one makes the assertion that God has never existed -- that God is a creation of man -- and it can easily be shown that people did indeed find meaning in their lives during the period when the man made belief in God gave life meaning, your assertion falls apart. [/ QUOTE ] I don’t think NotReady says this either. He does not say you cannot have meaning in your life. Have all the meaning you want. It will never be absolute or universal is all. We each have our own meaning or lack there of in our own lives. [/ QUOTE ] That doesn't sound at all like what he's posted and doesn't sound at all like nihilism which he says is the ONLY outcome.
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#118
10-07-2005, 07:40 PM
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Re: Herr Little Freddie Nietzche
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] NotReady is not saying “that man must give absolute meaning in order to create values for man.” He is saying (implying) you can have all the values you want. Just don’t say they are absolutes. [/ QUOTE ] Except nobody is speaking in absolutes but him. [/ QUOTE ] Also, I understand him to be saying meaning cannot arise from chance. chez
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