bankroll psychology throughout my poker career so far...

[gomberg]

Throughout my poker career (about 5 years), I've noticed that my handling of my bankroll has changed dramatically.

For my first 2-3 years, I would build a semi-bankroll. Take shots regularly, cash out a lot, go broke once in a while, rebuild, repeat, etc...

In year 4, I realized I wanted to play higher consistently so I could make more money. To do this required the discipline to not blow my bankroll. So I made about 26k total but ended the year w/ only 14k or so in my bankroll with a large part of that coming at the end of the year on nice upswing (5k or so). That means that even though I wanted to build my BR, I still spent money out of it for vacations throughout the year.

This year, I've made a conscious effort not to touch my bankroll. Other than 1 trip to vegas, my bankroll has just been accumulating. I'm finding that I made myself almost "cheap" in the process just in the name of building my bankroll so I can play in bigger and bigger games. I think this has affected me a little though as now I have mental blocks to playing higher stakes. For example, I have about 40k in my bankroll now, and am tring to play 10-20 NL games. The bankroll is probably about right for that game with a buyin of 2k, but I still get very nervous when I sit down (even though i'm only risking 5% of my bankroll at a time) and am more prone to mistakes. I've been scouting the games and think I have edge in them, but I still make more mistakes than when I sit in a 5-10 game just because of this mental "afraid to lose too much of my bankroll" syndrome.

This causes me to lose a little when I move up, making me move back down, rebuilding, then moving up again, until I finally beat the game... So far I took a 3 buy-in "shot", moved back down, made the money back plus some at the lower level, and am trying again (so far up about 1 buy-in, so far so good).

Does anyone else have this problem and how do you deal with it? With 5-10, it took me a couple months before I was comfortable with the stakes, and I'm guessing it will be the same with 10-20 - but are there shortcuts? I don't like not playing my best...

[flair1239]

I just recetly started in the last three months playing 5/10 Limit. I found that every level that I have gone thru, bankroll required to keep my "peace of mind" has gone up (BB wise).

I went to 1/2 limit with $600, 2/4 with $1200, 3/6 $2400, and 5/10 with $4,500. Right now I have about 10,000 in my BR, but I do not plan on moving up to 10/20 limit until I have around 800BB for the level.

Anyway, it could be as simple as 20 buy-in is not enough for you to feel comfortable. I don't know that there is much you can do about that, other than accept it.

It could be that as you acquire more confidence in your game, you pschological requirement will go down.

I think the simple solution is to grind out enough for another 10 buy-in at 10/20 and approach the game with a 30-buy in role.

It might take longer, but will probably be more productive then repeatedly moving up an down.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the simple solution is to grind out enough for another 10 buy-in at 10/20 and approach the game with a 30-buy in role.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the OP, do you live out of the bankroll? Take a monthly draw? Put money away in separate accounts?

I would go further than this. Get to the 30 buy ins, but along the way, take half of what you make out of the roll, above and beyond what you take for living expenses, and put it somewhere else. That is, earn enough at the smaller game to go from 20 to 40 buy ins for the big game, but take 10 of those away from poker forever.

The problem is that you can easily lose weeks worth of work in a few hours running bad at the higher game. Working for nothing for this long hurts, and the idea of that affects you. Taking money out so that you will always have something to show for your time should help.

[DarkForceRising]

Dr.Al wrote some excellent stuff regarding psychological bankroll in Poker Digest a couple of years ago. I recently made a post asking for a link because I could not find the article in the Card Player archives. Dr.Al responded by saying that Mason will publish them sometime this summer.

Great stuff if you have not seen it. Worth revisiting even if you have.

Hopefully, Dr.Al will see this post and respond.

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
Dr.Al wrote some excellent stuff regarding psychological bankroll in Poker Digest a couple of years ago. I recently made a post asking for a link because I could not find the article in the Card Player archives. Dr.Al responded by saying that Mason will publish them sometime this summer.

Great stuff if you have not seen it. Worth revisiting even if you have.

Hopefully, Dr.Al will see this post and respond.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is a question of your psychological bankroll not your actual bankroll. It's an intresting question whether having a bigger bankroll does diminish this problem. I suspect its largely a separate issue.

Anyway, this article has some stuff on this.

James

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
To the OP, do you live out of the bankroll? Take a monthly draw? Put money away in separate accounts?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - poker is purely a hobby for me. I have a day job and other hobbies, so I only play poker a little over 5 hours / week most weeks. I in no way need the money in my bankroll - I just want to keep moving up and build it up. This will give me opportunities in the future if I decide to go back to school for a phd, start a business, even become a "pro" if the notion entices me (although at this point my day job is pretty sweet other than the waking up thing and it pays pretty well)...

Thanks for all other replies - I will read those articles on psychological bankroll.

Jeff

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is a question of your psychological bankroll not your actual bankroll. It's an intresting question whether having a bigger bankroll does diminish this problem. I suspect its largely a separate issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link - that was a good article. I wonder how we can train ourselves to expand that bankroll. I think the most "natural" gamblers have an infinite psy. bankroll (all the super high stakes pros in vegas and some other "problem" gamblers)

For me, it did take some time playing above my psy. bankroll to adjust to the 5-10 game, but am fine and comfortable now. So maybe you just have to play crappy and take very limited shots for 3-6 months until you do get used to it and can play your best again. I see no other way at the moment...

Interesting stuff...

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how we can train ourselves to expand that bankroll

[/ QUOTE ]
I remember when I started playing, getting upset when I lost $11 in a session and how I felt going to bed after dropping $100 for the first time. Seems funny now and probably the losses that worry me now will seem the same in the future. Maybe it just is an unavoidable process of hardening through experience.

In theory there should be things we can do off the table to help things along. Other people will know more about this but there must be non poker specific techniques (other than desensitisation) to prepare yourself for dealing with fears and uncomfortable stuations. Anyone.

Maybe this doesn't apply to you but I find the money isn't the only culprit when moving up limits. I'm much less confident in my play at a new limit than the old one and these doubts make losing sessions tougher. I have to ask 'was I outplayed?', 'am I equal to this' etc. If I'm confident that that it is just variance then it becomes more of a practical issue. Interestingly, I find this causes relatively small losses to hurt when I play for less money but at a new game (eg moving from limit to SSNL).

James

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is a question of your psychological bankroll not your actual bankroll. It's an intresting question whether having a bigger bankroll does diminish this problem. I suspect its largely a separate issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link - that was a good article. I wonder how we can train ourselves to expand that bankroll. I think the most "natural" gamblers have an infinite psy. bankroll (all the super high stakes pros in vegas and some other "problem" gamblers)

For me, it did take some time playing above my psy. bankroll to adjust to the 5-10 game, but am fine and comfortable now. So maybe you just have to play crappy and take very limited shots for 3-6 months until you do get used to it and can play your best again. I see no other way at the moment...

Interesting stuff...

[/ QUOTE ]

Overbuild your bankroll, hit and run limits even higher than the new limit you are moving up too and your new regular limit won't seem as big since you have been playing occasional shots even higher.

Worth a try, and you might run well on those hit and runs and really clean up.

Nigel