Pocket Aces, board scary, lots of action

2+2 Junkie · #1 07-19-2005, 08:05 AM

UTG is a LAG, UTG+1 plays 44% of their hands, only 12 hands w/UTG+1 so far, UTG+3 is your typical fish, CO i have only seen for 3 hands, no reads.
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, CO calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (11.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Ok, before the flop, there is a raise before me, a cold call, then UTG+1 cold calls my 3 bet for 2 bets, and the other two complete. So we have 4 players who like their hands enough to 3 bet them.
Flop I hate because of the flush, I don't have an Ace of diamonds, I bet, there is a raise and two cold calls. I figure 3 people lik their hands well enough to cold call, they either have the flush, or they have at least one diamond or two pair.

Too weak?

itsmesteve · #2 07-19-2005, 08:19 AM

That's a really bad fold, imo. Even fish don't like hands like J6 or J3 enough to coldcall, usually. You can't play scared. Nothing here says the flush is out. A draw could very well be. There's a very good chance the LAG doesn't have a flush. I'd call here and bet out again on the turn, hoping lag again raises, and maybe folds out some of the coldcallers. Usually a cold call means I don't know what I'm doing, not I have a monster (usually!).

DrunkHamster · #3 07-19-2005, 08:29 AM

IMO this fold is really, really weak. So some guy has raised you? What does that mean. He most likely has a pair and a flush draw. You cannot assume that just becasue he raises you on the flop he automatically has a flush. In fact, his raising was probably the best thing that could have happened, as it (at least as far as it can) protects your hand. In fact, if you were in his position, and he bet out, you should raise too.
The way it turned out, I would call the flop, and reevaluate from there - most likely raise a safe turn (like the one you got). Anyway, the pot is huge at the flop, so folding this is pretty terrible.

PJM1206 · #4 07-19-2005, 08:32 AM

Ouch tough call. I just posted almost the exact same scenerio with two differences (1) I had no read on the villan and (2) an overcard (Ace) to my Qs flopped . I folded my QQ with much the same rationle as you put forth. You may want to read that post. I will tell you it was a mixed bag but the circumstances were less favorable with my QQ. There were some good points through the thread. Comments ranged from re-raising to folding.

I dont necessarliy think it was a bad play maybe not the best but not bad. What I like about it is that it was more aggressive (fold or riase) than passive (call) and you had the confidence to go with your instinct which I think is great job.

parappa · #5 07-19-2005, 08:53 AM

I can't fold this flop against random opponents. Against your reads, folding the flop is unthinkable.

UTG raised you. He's a lag, so his raise means he has one, maybe two cards. UTG+1 is a calling station, and he calls, signifying that he also has two cards. CO is unknown, but his call alone can't mean that he has a flush.

Perhaps you're up against a flush, and perhaps you saved money here. But you cost yourself money all the other times when you fold the best hand. Just call and see if another diamond comes on the turn or if someone else besides Mr. Laggy wakes up.

crownjules · #6 07-19-2005, 09:40 AM

Too quick to concede. Don't give credit for a made flush so easily, because the chances of someone flopping the flush are very slim. You've labeled UTG as a LAG. I would give UTG credit for top pair far before I ever gave him credit for a flush. He possibly has a single diamond, as might the callers.

My line: You're not going to protect against any flush draws, so you have to bet/raise for value. I'd say you're still ahead here a majority of the time. 3-bet the flop, lead the turn. I want this going to SD as long as a fourth diamond doesn't fall.

DrunkHamster · #7 07-19-2005, 09:43 AM

I know it is fairly overused, and often not applicable, but this seems like a perfect time to wait for the turn to protect our hand. With any safe card, i.e. one that doesn't pair the board or complete the flush, our equity in this pot will skyrocket, making betting and raising on the turn insanely more profitable. Of course raising the flop is probably +ev, but I would say raising the turn is even more so. If anyone disagrees, I would very much like to hear it.

parappa · #8 07-19-2005, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know it is fairly overused, and often not applicable, but this seems like a perfect time to wait for the turn to protect our hand. With any safe card, i.e. one that doesn't pair the board or complete the flush, our equity in this pot will skyrocket, making betting and raising on the turn insanely more profitable. Of course raising the flop is probably +ev, but I would say raising the turn is even more so. If anyone disagrees, I would very much like to hear it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could not agree more.

car ramrod · #9 07-19-2005, 09:52 AM

I would 3 bet the flop and go from there.

ArturiusX · #10 07-19-2005, 09:55 AM

If you make it a habit of folding to LAGs flop raises, you're losing a lot of money, simple.