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  #11  
Old 12-28-2005, 07:08 PM
MrEngenic MrEngenic is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

I think I fold the flop. Anyone else?
I don't know what UTG+1 is donking with but probably either a T or flushdraw+overcards. Button probably has overcards and MP1 at least one overcard. It looks like you are either WB or ahead but half the deck will beat you on the turn or river.

When you do decide to call the flop I like the rest.
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  #12  
Old 12-28-2005, 08:30 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

[ QUOTE ]
Donking the turn might be best...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell Yeah!

My plan for the hand:

1. Check the flop, planning to raise a bet from late position.

2. If a bet comes from early position, I'm calling the flop and donking any undercard turn.



As for pre-flop, I don't think three-betting is necessary. Often it will only get us in a bloated pot out of position against like 3 opponents, which is a bad position. I like taking the overlay on my set outs and maintaining my check-raising privileges.
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  #13  
Old 12-29-2005, 12:48 AM
McGahee McGahee is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

I also vote for a turn donk.
The river is kind of a weird spot because there are a considerable number of "solid" postflop players who will inexplicably bet OC's on the river, so it'd be tough to check/fold and check/call kinda sucks as well so I think I like the bet given the way you played the other streets.
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  #14  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:13 AM
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's for value whenever his hand is best. If he checks most better hands will bet but some worse hands that will call a bet will check through if given the chance. IF UTG missed a draw he'll likely give up on the river as well and then hero misses value from MP if he doesn't bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still can't see ANY worse hand calling this river when Hero pops out of the blue on a blank and donks.

Are you hoping MP has a 7, a 2, pocket 4s?
I don't get what value Hero's missing.

I think you've got a much better chance of a villian betting a worse hand in this situation than someone calling with a worse one.

I'm obviously completely missing something here...
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  #15  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:18 AM
Alexthegreat Alexthegreat is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

What are you guys donking the turn for?
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  #16  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:29 AM
MrEngenic MrEngenic is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

Why don't you guys fold the flop with bet-call-call in front and oop?
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  #17  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

Deranged is my hero. I love his line here. I think a donk turn would clear up the hand quite nicely for us. A T is going to pop, a 5 is going to pop, an overpair is going to pop, in which case we have our 2 lovely outs (bad) but we'll likely be HU from there (good) or can release and be done with it. Any other holdings will either fold (good) or we have charged them to chase (good).

The way it was played, I'm with kwaz on the river play. I don't see UTG+1 laying down to our bet and he might pop us if he does have a T or a 5. The other villain is a mystery. We might have the best hand, we might not. We're pretty much 1 in 3 against a reasonable range of hands for our two villains, so let's not pay two bets or bet/fold when we can check/call and potentially take down 9-11BB for 1. I just don't see the value of the river donk.
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  #18  
Old 12-30-2005, 12:19 PM
MrEngenic MrEngenic is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

Bump, why don't you guys consider folding the flop?
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  #19  
Old 12-30-2005, 03:41 PM
Jim Easton Jim Easton is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

Folding might be the best play in this situation. I would check the flop looking to checkraise the preflop raiser, but the bet from the solid postflop player in EP changes things. If you are ahead, you have to dodge 1/3 or more of the deck twice and if you are behind, you only have 1 reasonable out, as the 9s would be questionable. Sometimes the best defense against a semi-bluff is to fold.
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  #20  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:53 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 - 99 OOP - Something a little different

[ QUOTE ]
Bump, why don't you guys consider folding the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. E,

Basically, the reason folding the flop is bad is because we simply have too much hand. The important things in this hand:

1. The pot is only four handed. Against three opponents, very often our pair is the only pair or at least the top pair when we have only one overcard on board.

2. The overcard is a T. Basically, I am less scared of overcards the lower in rank they are. I think folding would be more reasonable if the overcard were an A, a bit less so if it were a K, etc...

3. Button not raising the flop makes it considerably less likely he has an overpair.

4. UTG's bet might represent a T, but a solid postflop player might prefer to check-raise a hand like AT here. A bet here might just as well represent a hand like Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or even something like 88. (The fact that UTG is likely to have a ton of outs against us is precisely the reason we prefer to wait until the turn to get aggressive, because an overcard or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] turn means we can probably be done with the hand).

Those are my thoughts.
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