Overcalls? X-post from HUSH

[SomethingClever]

I feel like I get called by overs, clubs, gutshots and just total crap on a flop like this.

If the flop has one big card, and it's checked to me, I'm betting. If I'm heads-up, I'm usually betting. I just don't see picking it up often enough against two opponents here.

And betting pretty much means I have to bet the turn no matter what, or I give my opponent license to bluff on the river.

I do see merit to betting the turn after the flop was checked and I picked up a lot more outs. But, the pot is still miniscule, so I'm not really convinced yet.

[baronzeus]

It's very draw heavy, A4, A2, 69, 79, two clubs, 46..., any 8, probably any 5

all these hands will call for one bet.

[RiverTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this hand was interesting, but maybe it's routine.

5/10 6-max

I have 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB. CO limps, SB completes, I check.

Flop comes 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked around.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked around

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets. I call hoping to get a call out of CO. CO raises. SB calls. I just call.

Thoughts? Anyone bet the turn in this 1.5 BB monster pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just take the free river, betting isnt going to get everyone to call, and it wont get everyone to fold, so just suckout like you did and then put some chips in...

PS- The overcall here is nice

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
It's very draw heavy, A4, A2, 69, 79, two clubs, 46..., any 8, probably any 5

all these hands will call for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of these hands I find 96 unlikely. A4 & A2 probably would have raised before the flop (and the SB would have probably bet with these hands on the flop). I agree that any pair, especially 8s and 5s would stick around, but A) I don't consider them draws so that's why I didn't include them in my post, and B) if SB had either of those cards he probably would have bet the flop.

Maybe if your opponents (especially the SB) are very weak/tight they might have played ace-high or a pair this passively, but if they're weak/tight they're the perfect players to try to semi-bluff on the flop.

I agree that 97 will probably call, so I should add that one to my list. But that hand is very unlikely to show down unimproved, so even if that hand calls it's far from a catastrophe.

[baronzeus]

Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage. Except this time hero has major trash on the flop, and loses to even a random overcall.

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though most players will throw away 97 (especially offsuit) many players will limp with hands like 97s in late position. But even bad players are unlikely to call preflop with big lick, and if they do play it because their juvenile sense of humor tells them it's funny, they'll usually raise with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing in OP's original post about reads. With no reads how do you know your opponent will play like this. Perahps your experience is different than mine, but I certainly wouldn't categorize the typical 5/10 6 max. player as the sort of player who will open limp with 96 in lp.

[ QUOTE ]
Except this time hero has major trash on the flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. He has a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw on a flop that is unlikely to have hit anybody who voluntarily entered the pot.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would 97 call and 96 not call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though most players will throw away 97 (especially offsuit) many players will limp with hands like 97s in late position. But even bad players are unlikely to call preflop with big lick, and if they do play it because their juvenile sense of humor tells them it's funny, they'll usually raise with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, LPPs usually don't raise A4 and A2 preflop, and they also don't usually bet flops that they missed. They do what they're supposed to: call down with garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing in OP's original post about reads. With no reads how do you know your opponent will play like this. Perahps your experience is different than mine, but I certainly wouldn't categorize the typical 5/10 6 max. player as the sort of player who will open limp with 96 in lp.

[ QUOTE ]
Except this time hero has major trash on the flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

No he doesn't. He has a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw on a flop that is unlikely to have hit anybody who voluntarily entered the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

gutshot+backdoor < 5 outs to win. betting is only for fold equity and i think fold equity is extremely low here with all the backdoor draws possible. that makes betting moronic.

you're right, there are no reads, so assuming a hand range is stupid.

and sb could have completed with any two. i complete with almost any 2 in this situation.

[SomethingClever]

Results.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (1.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Results in white below:
SB has 9d Th (two pair, tens and fives).
Hero has 6s 2s (flush, ten high).
Button has Ah Td (two pair, tens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.50 BB.

[Buck_65]

I think a turn bet should be really standard here. You're definitely calling a bet, and oftentimes in tiny pots like these where the board is all low, whoever bets first takes the pot. If you happen to get raised, it sucks, but I really think a bet shows significant profit over a check here.

[Jeff W]

I bet flop and turn. I raise river--you have no reason to expect a call from CO, but you should get a call from SB.