see mike push. push mike, push

[ticks]

hes telling us he couldnt really think straight.
because of fear.

[Tommy Angelo]

"see i dont know how to play no limit yet."

Do you think that one day you are going to wake up and look in the mirror and say to yourself, "Today, finally, I know how to play no-limit. Yesterday I didn't, but today I do. Cool."

Or maybe you think it will happen at the table, as you think to yourself, "Right before I just caught that flush on the river and doubled up for the fourth time tonight and broke the whole game and sent all these saps home crying, I did not know how to play no-limit. But now I do. Cool."

There's no knowing how mike. There's just doing now.

And yes you are a vat of fear just like most mammals. It's too bad that some of the best lines lose their punch just by being so good that they get repeated so often that they lose their punch. The one I have in mind is, "There's nothing to fear but fear itself."

So, so true, especially with pocket aces.

Tommy

[mike l.]

"Or maybe you think it will happen at the table, as you think to yourself, "Right before I just caught that flush on the river and doubled up for the fourth time tonight and broke the whole game and sent all these saps home crying, I did not know how to play no-limit. But now I do. Cool."

no ive done that before a few times and i thought wow, i sure got lucky my hands held up and i was able to get all my money in preflop or on the flop against such dogs.

im still scared of big bet poker even when it's really little bet poker. i can sit there and eat a plate of pad thai at commerce and casually drop $5000 playing like turd in a limit game, but give me a good hand in a baby nl game and im just shaking in my boots looking for the first opportunity to push all my chips in so i dont have to make anymore decisions.

maybe it's the embarassment of calling when i have the worst hand for all my chips. im okay with pushing and then getting called with the nuts, but im too scared of checking and calling with second best for all the chips.

anyway all that aside what do you think of the way i played it preflop and on the flop? what wouldve been a better route?

[arod15]

Raise to at least 80 to go PF. Then lead out pot sized to the flop. I doubt anyone has a 10 unless they have quads. But your pf raise was terrible.

[mike l.]

"your pf raise was terrible."

others said it was fine. can you go into detail?

[fnord_too]

I like raising more pre flop with a lot of limpers. I look at this hand as having 2 $5 blinds and 1 $10 blind and a lot of limpers. So I would go to my standard (on line standard, that is) of 3BB + 1BB per limper. I'm not thrilled with this simple formula, but I find myself using it and it is fine at the limits I play. Live, you probably should have a higher standard raise, but I never play live so I am not real sure of that oppinion.

Why I like raising more pre flop is this:
With that many limpers and your image you will get called somewhere most likely.
No hands is getting odds to call you, whereas with your raise, anyone who knows you will stack off with an overpair is getting from close to correct to easily correct odds to call you with smaller pairs.
Your post flop decisions are much easier, and you are more likely to get paid off since the pot will be giving better odds.

[cero_z]

Hi mike,

cwl's post makes good sense here. I'm coming to this thread late, but I want to add some stuff:

Pre-flop, you should reraise pot, or somewhat more, if you think one of the callers will be willing to call a bit more. You raised exactly the pot (your call put $50 in there, you raised $50 more), so that was good. You got 2 callers whose hand ranges are wide given what they think of you, so that's mildly scary, but you do have AA and not too deep of a stack, so you're fine.

The flop was a pretty good one for you, since most players' calling ranges of your pre-flop raise are skewed toward pocket pairs; obviously, pairs have 2 outs if they're behind. However, given that their ranges are a bit wider, we have to concede that one of them could've called with a suited Broadway T (or maybe T9s); presumably, this is all you were worried about. Still, you said that you were willing to get it all-in against these guys. Once you've made up your mind about that, this hand is very easy to play, I think. You just make bets that draws are wrong to call, and get it all in at the next opportunity if anyone raises or calls. Meaning, you 3/4 pot the flop, which leaves you with 300 more and about 500 in the pot if anyone comes along--easy push.

The fear thing is noted, but must be dropped, of course. One thing that separates good NL players from weaker ones is that they're not afraid to let a card slide off with a "vulnerable" hand, when their reads tell them that their opponents are probably drawing very slim (as with a pocket pair on this board), despite the drawing possiblilities on the flop. I'm not talking about slowplaying, exactly: I'm talking about not overbetting your strong hands in a manner that ensures you don't get the loose action you want. This is exactly what your all-in on the flop accomplished, IMO: you will only get called by hands that beat you, and by a few good pocket pairs that would've played anyway for smaller bets. But most importantly, you miss out on action from small pairs, or other hands that would move in on you as a bluff or semi-bluff, if you only gave them the chance. Remember, you were willing to get it all in; let them think they can put you to a decision.

[Tommy Angelo]

"anyway all that aside what do you think of the way i played it preflop"

I think you raised exactly the wrong amount. If you were trying to give out the perfectly wrong odds to all the wrong people, who could not have picked a worse number.

(Translation, raise 1/4 - 1/3 your stack. It you get one caller, now your all-in bet on the flop is the size of the pot. He can never be getting right odds to draw to anything, before or on the flop. And this way you'll feel good while it's happening because you'll be be doing your (apparent) overbet because of fear thing.)

Tommy

[TomCollins]

How I play this is totally dependent on my opponents. Against some, a push is appropriate. Against others, betting pot may be better, and others, betting small to induce a raise may even be the best play. Even a check with an all-in checkraise is not terrible against the right opponents.

I'll push if they will regularly call me with worse hands.

I'll checkraise if they tend to bet with nothing if I show weakness. I may even check call and check-rasie a non flush turn.

Against the super-aggressive opponents, a weak-lead may get the most from your opponents.

This hand is a lot easier to play with a loose image, since you will get called by a lot of really bad hands. I tend to play pretty LAG, so a weak-lead may be my favorite play.

[sawseech]

this made me giggle
given your description i would checkraise allin if i were you