Pocket eights in a raised pot

[SlantNGo]

Typical Party 0.5/1 table. No read on either MP3 or Button.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

11 SB in this pot already so I think a fold is out of the question. A check/raise wouldn't help protect my hand since the bet will probably come from Button, so I bet here.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Picked up a gutshot straight draw and a weak flush draw. I still think my hand is best, and I'm not gonna give a free card.

River: (10.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button folds.

I entertained checking this river, as now both a K and 6 beats me, so I'm not ahead of a whole lot besides a busted draw. If I checked, I would have called if it was one back to me.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Did I go wrong anywhere in this hand? What would you have done on the river if you played it the way I did up to that point?

[Peter Harris]

looks fine, bet until you meet resistance. opponent may have had a weak K and you saved bets.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[SlantNGo]

What about the river? You would bet the river as weel?

[Peter Harris]

yes, bet the river also in my book.

Pete H.

[dellcosta]

I don't think betting with a pair of eights against four other players when a K shows up on the flop is a good idea, especially when the person on the button raised before the flop. You really need another 8 to make your hand, and the probability of that is only ~4%. With two players behind you, you're playing from a weak position, which means if someone has one of the other Kings, you're probably going to get reraised. It doesn't look to me like the pot/implied odds ever justified the bet either. In my brief experience, it's usually best to fold pocket pairs if the flop doesn't improve your hand or leave you with two high cards. Comments?

[elbuddha]

&gt; " With two players behind you, you're playing from a weak position, which means if someone has one of the other Kings, you're probably going to get reraised."

Are you going to fold when button auto-bets after his pfr? If not, you have to lead out this flop.

[k000k]

I think leading is the right thing to do. If you got raised on the flop, THEN start wondering.. You encounter no resistance, it looks like you probably won this hand to me. "If you're only calling, I have you beat" applies here.

[mack848]

I disagree.

After the flop Hero might be best - you can't assume he needs to improve to win, especially in a decent sized pot.

Betting the flop puts him in a better position to judge how likely it is that he's ahead. It must be worth investing 1 small bet to try and win this pot. If raised behind him, it's time to consider folding or calling down.

In this case, the lack of a raise suggests he's good. He surely has the equity to play on from here, unless someone springs to life in the expensive streets?

[dellcosta]

I don't know about SlantNGo, but I need a bit more convincing before I stand corrected and agree with you all that betting the pocket eights is the right thing to do. We're talking about a "Typical Party 0.5/1 table" here, right?

It appears to me that you trapped yourself by opening the betting on the turn -- that's where I think you went wrong. Moreover, on the "typical .5/1 table," it's not unusual to see someone call a pair of Kings on the flop in order to raise or check-raise it on the turn... either that or you've got a calling station on your hands who won't raise it without something better than a pair.

If someone shows me positive tracking results for cold calling with a pair of eights and then opening the betting against a King and a possible flush draw on the flop, I'll stand corrected.

How did the situation end, SlantNGo?

[jay1313]

I don't disagree with your analysis however, I have seen these go both ways. You are called down with a pocket pair of 9's or the weak king or you are called down with a pocket pair of 7's or even A4. I can't give you exact figures but I like being in control of the hand and giving the opponent the opportunity to fold his pocket 9's against my represented K instead. I have collected several pots where my opponent folded on the river to my under pocket pair. Obviously, I have no way of knowing whether they folded a better or worse hand then mine. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you win. I think arguments can be made either way. But taking control is much better then having it dictated for you.