Loose players and post-flop play...

[ElSapo]

Every day, someone posts on here "how do I beat these loose players? They're killing me." And every day, the response is "these are the people giving away money."

That's true, of course. But to some extent, post-flop play makes up for it.

I raise MP with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the blinds call. Both are relatively unknown, though SB I recognize as a regular on the site.

Flop is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

They check, I bet, they call.
Turn is a 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], they check, I bet and the SB, the familiar player, calls.

It's a 6-max table. No one has been getting too out of line.

I feel like in this instance, the general advice regarding an unknown player is "call down." Which may be right. But it's a situation where the loose player, the SB, knows better than we do if we have the best hand.

Generally speaking, while the loose player is your bread and butter, against an ABC player he will have a better idea where he's at post-flop.

River was a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], he bets and I call.

ElSapo

[Mempho]

Good post. This line should generate some discussion:

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That's true, of course. But to some extent, post-flop play makes up for it.

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as well as this one:

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But it's a situation where the loose player, the SB, knows better than we do if we have the best hand.


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[Guthrie]

[ QUOTE ]
River was a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], he bets and I call.

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Then he turns over 94o and scoops your pot.

[cpk]

It has nothing to do with whether you're a loose player or not and everything to do with whether you're an underdog or not.

Say you're a TAG but you defend your blind with 76s and flop three 7s. You know that your hand is probably best, but your opponent cannot be too terribly sure if his hand is best. But it can go both ways...if you have 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the board is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you know you probably have the best hand. But now if the river is 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you can't be so sure anymore. But if your opponent has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], he knows he has a the best hand. The players are irrelevant--only basic skill is needed here to understand what has happened.

That's because these steps of improvement are dramatic, and they have happened in ways unlikely to also help the other hand. The problem you find yourself in is that as a good, tight player you will usually be the favorite, so you will face the risk of an unlikely underdog nipping at your heels. AA is, after all, only one pair, but it is because hands in hold 'em rarely improve that this hand is so powerful. When the underdog improves, he improves in a way that is dramatic and leaves you with few outs. And worse, he is going to be sure of it, and you won't.

That's just the nature of the game. I wouldn't sweat it too much, because it's the big part of what makes hold 'em interesting.

The OP and you both made some really interesting points I now have to ponder. Thanks.

[ElSapo]

Thanks for the responses so far - one point, which you may or may not have seen, is that on the turn I get check-raised in the example hand (hence the call-down reference).

The point to all this was not "damn that variance," or "I hate those loose players." Mostly I was pondering that this -loose play- people gripe about (wrongly) gets a whole lot less -bad- depending on post-flop play, especially against so-called "unknowns" who get paid off when tighter players opt to simply call down.

Not much of a brianstorm or eurkea moment, but something I think about when I get drawn out on and pay off -- how much the worst of it were they really taking, when I put in, say, 3 BB behind and 1.5 BB ahead (assuming they got there on the turn).

ElSapo