Hand Vs Good Player

Just a hunch:

I believe in betting the river if we miss and check/calling the river in the actual hand.

If he's a "good" (but not world class) player, won't he value bet almost any pair if we check to him + maybe some bluffs?

[Ray Zee]

whats wrong with check calling on all the streets here.

[elindauer]

Against players with TAG stats who take this WA/WB line, I raise the river with anything I'd consider calling with and some things I wouldn't. Good luck with that.

This river bet means 1 of 2 things:

- I have a weak made hand and recognize that you may be even weaker, so I'm betting intending to fold to a raise

- I have a weak made hand and recognize that you may be even weaker, so I'm betting intending to fold to a raise only to chicken out at the last minute and payoff a raise anyways

So I raise the river to figure out which category you fall into, and proceed accordingly. I also value raise top pair etc aggressively against this line, since so many people are in camp 2.

Personally, I see virtually no one donk bet-3-bet strong hands on the river, which is the play you need to make to keep me honest.

Yeah, your opponent can't possibly raise AK, because he'll get called by better hands and fold bluffs. So you use this information to bet/fold middle pair. But that means he can now raise AK against you as a bluff, so I do.

good luck.
-Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
CR'ing the flop sucks because there's a flush draw out and he'll put you on a draw too easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that give us an additional 7 outs then? And aren't you assuming that we always check-raise draws and such? What if our style is to frequently check-call flush draws, and check-raise made hands, only attacking with straight draws like this? Is he really going to call down with a middle pocket pair or a weak ace high here?

Essentially, your argument is that you should never check-raise a draw unless the board seems to be draw-free. That's silly.

-Eric

[etizzle]

at no point in the hand could he have been WA/WB. your post has thoroughly confused me.

[HiatusOver]

[ QUOTE ]
whats wrong with check calling on all the streets here.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing wrong with it. I think the new breed of hold'em players get it in our heads that when we flop a garden variety draw like this vs a steal raiser we are entitled to the pot. I admit that I am often guilty of this. I do think there is some real value in making 33 fold or A7 fold if they are willing to.

Would u usually just check-call every street here Ray or were u just offering it as an alternative?

[baronzeus]

c/c, c/c, c/c is good...another line you might want to think about is c/c, b/c.


Donking the turn puts him in a real rough spot with overs. It looks like a weak pair that you didn't want to check raise the flop with but you also don't want checked through.

[HiatusOver]

U are confused etizzle, Elindauer's post is a gem and makes perfect sense.

[etizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
U are confused etizzle, Elindauer's post is a gem and makes perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see how the following sentence makes any sense.

[ QUOTE ]
Against players with TAG stats who take this WA/WB line

[/ QUOTE ]

who took a WA/WB line?

[mc1023]

this is an expensive semi-bluff or bluff if you intend to bet the river unimproved. Your putting 2 BBs to win 4.5BB if he is to fold the turn which won't be likely for a broad range of hands.

So essentially your really putting in 3BB to win 5.5BB. I tihnk against a good player I would not checkraise this board on the flop since he may pop you on the turn when led into with a wide range of hands since there are lots of draws out there.

but I don't think checkraise on a blank on the turn is a very good line in this spot either. Your representing a monster and hoping he folds a very weak hand.

Why not lead the flop or donk the turn? and call down if he shows aggression.