Is o8 a limpers game?

[pipes]

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I believe raising preflop adds tremendously to your profits and only increases your variance marginally. Go figure.

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I agree.

Many people say you lose money on future streets because you 'give away' your hand. I think you gain preflop as well as future streets.

On future streets you gain because you make the pot bigger and entice people to draw to non nut lows and highs. With your premium hand, you'll have the nuts or good draws to the nuts if you remain in the hand.

[pipes]

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I disagree that raising preflop only adds marginally to your profits but adds tremendously to your fluctuations. But even if it does, so what? IMO one should be playing at a little where there can play optimally.

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That's because you're discounting the risk of ruin:

Let's say that your bankroll should be roughly eaqual to 4*variance/Expected Value.

In real life, of course, the bankroll is effectively fixed, so, if you can cut your variance in half for a 1 or 2% decrease in EV, you can take the same bankroll to a table with twice the stakes, and make twice as much money.

Therefore, variance-reducing play is valuable.

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Rufus, good point but I don't think that EV to Variance is even in the ballpark that you suggest.

Different topic, but I think people are too highly focused on what bankroll they need. Most limit O8b players are not pros so the risk of ruin is not that important.

I like the advice I've seen before on this forum. Your bankroll should be 50BB and a job.

[FeliciaLee]

I believe that conditions set the standard somewhat when it comes to pre-flop raising and lots of jamming early in LO8.

For instance, this year during the series, Rio spread some awesome, nine-handed LO8 games. There were always 10/20 and 20/40 games with a half kill.

The thing I noticed right off of the bat, was that lots of my opponents were very passive and always going low. They refused to play most high hands, but would play hands with wheel cards. Even two wheel cards with horrible sidecards would be played. Any ace with another wheel card would be played. They were so passive that many hands were shown down at the river, and I got to see their starting hands over and over again.

So I started playing lots of high hands. Most pots were played shorthanded, so I played my high hands more like HE. I kept splitting or scooping pots with high pairs. Since they refused to play any high pairs outside of aces, I was able to push around my high cards, and even started playing pairs as low as jacks even if my sidecards were bad.

In shorthanded games, I'm apt to raise a lot more often, and with a wide variety of hands. I'm going to use position and table image a lot, if my opponents are really paying attention and letting me affect their game.

On the other end of the spectrum, I played in some of the wilder games at Rio, with a lot of aggressive, middle-aged men who all wanted to show everyone else how good they were, how well they knew O8, how much they could bully. So I sat in the middle of a monkey game, letting them raise and reraise, talk about everyone else at the table, brag about how good they were and how much they know about Omaha versus all of the other players at the table. I just sat quietly, passively, overcalling like a calling station, but always showing down the nuts, one way or another. Slyly taking their chips and "letting them" convince me that they were the greatest O8 players alive.

Sure, some sessions didn't work out, at either type table, but overall, O8 was my most profitable game this year at the series. Most of the time I was able to double through with ease, and I played long hours just relaxing after tourneys or sats.

While in any game, under any circumstances, we typically raise with AA23 DS, frequent raising and jamming early in a hand can depend on a huge variety of circumstances.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Chamonyx]

In a game where you have lots of players liking to see a flop, then I beleive it is ESSENTIAL to raise your good hands pre-flop, especially with position. If you don't tax the limpers with their highly speculative hands, then you are not going to get compensated for those times when they suck out on you.

If your game is loose pre-flop and tight post flop, then again you MUST raise pre-flop as it is the only significant way that you will be able to get any money into it before getting heads up and splitting.

If your game is loose passive post flop, then building the pot pre-flop increases the likelihood that the fish will keep coming along if you hit. (This assumes you are a good enough player to know when to bail).

If you are so worried about bankroll fluctuations, it might be better to drop down a level so that you can have a higher expectation but with a variance that you are comfortable with in absolute $ terms (OK $^2 for any smartasses out there).

If you are still in doubt, then ask yourself why you get so pissed off that the only hands you get on a Kill pot are 569Q etc, and you only get A23Kds on a normal round with one limper and the blinds.

The only argument I can see for dampening down the raising propensity on good hands is if the rest of the table are playing for social pleasure and your running over them is starting to get in the way of their buying more racks.

[Buzz]

Pokerswami - First let's get the facts straight.

People do raise before the flop in limit Omaha-8 games.

Sometimes I play in games where pre-flop raising is the norm - where there's almost always a pre-flop raise. Often the raising in these pre-flop-aggressive games is mostly done by a very few players who may <font color="white">_</font>think they know how to play the game of Omaha-8 well, but who don't really understand how to play Omaha-8 well at all - and when that's the case, I don't think it's in the best interests of a seasoned player to get out of the game just because fluctuations increase.

It is true that pre flop raises increase fluctuations and <font color="white">_</font>when you make them too frequently yourself you do not gain you much profit. Indeed, I think when you make them yourself with a good hand, you may alert your opponents and end up profiting less than you would have profited without the pre-flop raise.

You're still going to show a profit with a good hand, whether you raise before the flop or not. But you may make more profit by not giving your hand away too early. Give the fish a chance to swallow the bait rather than jerking back on the pole the instant the fish touches it.

I think when Ray Zee wrote about only marginally increasing your profits he was thinking in terms of raising before the flop <font color="white">_</font>yourself.

I believe it is true that your fluctuations greatly increase when there's much pre-flop raising by your opponents.

Whether or not I make a pre-flop raise myself has nothing whatsoever to do with a consideration of fluctuations. It's purely because I think I will end up with more profit at the end of the evening by playing that hand one way or another. And I believe many, if not most, of my solid playing limit Omaha-8 opponents think that way too.

If my opponents who know the game well are not raising much before the flop, I believe it's mainly because they think they'll have more chips at the end of the evening by not raising.

Yes, there are games with groups of players such that there's very little pre-flop raising. But for the most part I don't think that has much, if anything, to do with a dread of bankroll fluctuations.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

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I don't see what the point of defining your hand to a field of players is by raising your AA23ss into 4 limpers.

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Oh my, this is ugly.

I'd take an easy stab at explaining how ugly, but it appears you are trying to convince us of this rather than seeking thoughts on it. I am content to let you keep limping your A23's after a bunch of limpers, if you so choose.

[Chamonyx]

lol - reminds me of Raymer's quote to Jesse May during this year's series:

Everyone thinks they are the best HE player in the world, but everyone KNOWS they are the best at O8.

[pipes]

Felicia, I often play in a juicy OE rotation.

The O game is very similar to what you described in your post. Its either a very loose passive full game or its shorthanded.

In the full game I'm raising good hands in middle to late position for value. For the shorthanded games, I'm doing more raising. Often to take control as you do.

My raising preflop in this particular game is one of my major competitive advantages IMO.

[pipes]

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The only argument I can see for dampening down the raising propensity on good hands is if the rest of the table are playing for social pleasure and your running over them is starting to get in the way of their buying more racks.

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This is a very good point. I play in a very social/juicy OE rotation. Many of them never raise preflop and don't believe in it. I still raise preflop, but not as often as I would normally because of this.

[pipes]

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Pokerswami - First let's get the facts straight.

People do raise before the flop in limit Omaha-8 games.

Sometimes I play in games where pre-flop raising is the norm - where there's almost always a pre-flop raise. Often the raising in these pre-flop-aggressive games is mostly done by a very few players who may <font color="white">_</font>think they know how to play the game of Omaha-8 well, but who don't really understand how to play Omaha-8 well at all - and when that's the case, I don't think it's in the best interests of a seasoned player to get out of the game just because fluctuations increase.

It is true that pre flop raises increase fluctuations and <font color="white">_</font>when you make them too frequently yourself you do not gain you much profit. Indeed, I think when you make them yourself with a good hand, you may alert your opponents and end up profiting less than you would have profited without the pre-flop raise.

You're still going to show a profit with a good hand, whether you raise before the flop or not. But you may make more profit by not giving your hand away too early. Give the fish a chance to swallow the bait rather than jerking back on the pole the instant the fish touches it.

I think when Ray Zee wrote about only marginally increasing your profits he was thinking in terms of raising before the flop <font color="white">_</font>yourself.

I believe it is true that your fluctuations greatly increase when there's much pre-flop raising by your opponents.

Whether or not I make a pre-flop raise myself has nothing whatsoever to do with a consideration of fluctuations. It's purely because I think I will end up with more profit at the end of the evening by playing that hand one way or another. And I believe many, if not most, of my solid playing limit Omaha-8 opponents think that way too.

If my opponents who know the game well are not raising much before the flop, I believe it's mainly because they think they'll have more chips at the end of the evening by not raising.

Yes, there are games with groups of players such that there's very little pre-flop raising. But for the most part I don't think that has much, if anything, to do with a dread of bankroll fluctuations.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

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Buzz, the tone of your posts are very disparaging.

You say that players who disagree with you on preflop raising only 'think' they know how to play the game well. Or that most solid players agree with you.

Several posters on here that play this game for a living advocate preflop raising. Several others with WSOP bracelets like Bobby Baldwin and Steve Badger advocate preflop raising as well.

At the very least you should be more respectful of those who disagree.