finding a fold...

wuwei · #1 07-29-2005, 01:04 AM

One of my big issues right now while dabbling at 3/6 is my inability to fold. I'm working on it... trying to bring that winning % at showdown up a bit.

I'm pretty new to the table, but thus far MP is the only one who appears to be sane.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Button folds, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

Graham Handler · #2 07-29-2005, 01:22 AM

Thats a tough one if you didnt beat middle pair i would say clear fold but u beat a huge amount of hands he raises with. I three bet the hand pre-flop unlesss he is a nut peddler. I lead and calldown after that. J85 is about the best u can hope for with a pair of nines.

Perseus · #3 07-29-2005, 01:39 AM

I'm usually three betting preflop. I also call this down

Grisgra · #4 07-29-2005, 01:55 AM

3-betting so that I can face a flop OOP against 3 other players (if you think UTG is folding you're a nut) isn't something I'm fond of.

I'm neutral towards the fold. At as passive a game as the 3/6 is, from what you guys tell me, this is not a bad fold. I'm guessing there aren't a ton of 3/6 players that 3-bet a flop checkraiser with A8 or AK. On the other hand, I think that most opponents would call the flop and then raise the turn with their QQ or AJ or whatnot.

So maybe call down for information, get a feel for what people 3-bet the flop with in this game, but for this hand, at this level, I think a fold is probably slightly +EV.

(Not that I practice what I preach.)

Graham Handler · #5 07-29-2005, 02:08 AM

You figure to have the best hand preflop this isnt a ring game aggression is the key if the original raisor decides to wake up and cap im pretty sure you are in trouble and you gain furhter info on his hand. Im pretty sure utg is a chump limping some trash I really dont care if he calls 1 or 2 bets or folds I would be worried about the original raisor and three betting makes the hand alot easier to play in my opinion.

Entity · #6 07-29-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You figure to have the best hand preflop this isnt a ring game aggression is the key if the original raisor decides to wake up and cap im pretty sure you are in trouble and you gain furhter info on his hand. Im pretty sure utg is a chump limping some trash I really dont care if he calls 1 or 2 bets or folds I would be worried about the original raisor and three betting makes the hand alot easier to play in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grisgra is right on this one. He understands ring vs. SH aggression so no need to lecture him there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The problem with 3-betting is you bloat the pot bigtime with a hand that will face several overcards in general and multiple limpers on the flop, and it's better to control the pot size preflop and play postflop accordingly.

I think this hand is very well played though there are many opponents (at 5/10) I will intend to showdown against.

Rob

Grisgra · #7 07-29-2005, 12:31 PM

Thanks, Ent [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Another option is to call the turn, and check/fold the river. Most people won't fire the last bullet with a showdownable hand like AK or A8. JT might even check behind.

wuwei · #8 07-29-2005, 02:31 PM

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

[ QUOTE ]

Another option is to call the turn, and check/fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

My trouble there is that when I'm facing 1 bet on the river in a big pot, I'm unable to make the fold.

This isn't a fold I would have made a while ago, but it felt right here. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy laying something down that was this borderline. Next, maybe I'll post one of my retarded A high call downs and see how those go over...

Grisgra · #9 07-29-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the feedback, guys.

[ QUOTE ]

Another option is to call the turn, and check/fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

My trouble there is that when I'm facing 1 bet on the river in a big pot, I'm unable to make the fold.

This isn't a fold I would have made a while ago, but it felt right here. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy laying something down that was this borderline. Next, maybe I'll post one of my retarded A high call downs and see how those go over...

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand -- pot is big, but it's not THAT big. But big enough that it's psychologically tough to turn down those 9:1 odds (which I don't think you'd be getting, not at 3/6. At higher limits people are a lot more eager to carry their silly bluffs all the way to the river. Less the case at the lower limits.)

MisterKing · #10 07-30-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Ent [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Another option is to call the turn, and check/fold the river. Most people won't fire the last bullet with a showdownable hand like AK or A8. JT might even check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems eminently reasonable to me given my brief experience at 3/6 short. While there seems to be a number of players who will bluff bet/raise the river with almost any two cards, the majority of players I've seen in these games thus far play much less aggressively on the river than they do on the two preceding streets. You have good showdown value and can defeat a wide range of hands. It might be a good idea to call and check/fold if:

- Opponent has a very high postflop aggression total, or;

- Opponent shows these two characteristics: plays a high % of hands up front, and shows a sub-optimal won at showdown total (WSD%).

I would add "sees a lot of shodowns" to the second point above, but I don't think this quantity is actually all that important: he actually WONT be seeing that many more showdowns if he's playing lots of hands aggressively and getting (many but not all) opponents to fold the turn by way of that aggression. By focusing on his overall range and the % of time he's winning when called down, you get a better approximation of the value associated with your turn call.