KJo against loose, passive 3-bettor

SomethingClever · #1 03-07-2005, 03:33 AM

What's the best way to play this?

Villain is like 75/2.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets ...

Michael Davis · #2 03-07-2005, 03:36 AM

Fold preflop after you raise and get threebet.

-Michael

SomethingClever · #3 03-07-2005, 03:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop after you raise and get threebet.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems like a recipe for disaster. Are you serious?

Edit: What I mean is, won't that encourage others to take shots at my raises preflop?

Michael Davis · #4 03-07-2005, 03:48 AM

I don't really care about all that, I'll deal with that when it happens. Type "misclick AA" if you want...

I think you have a lot of opportunities to fold in this hand that are based on the stats of your opponent. If you aren't folding earlier, the turn seems like an autofold to me.

-Michael

Jeff W · #5 03-07-2005, 03:49 AM

1. You raised pre flop with a marginal hand and got 3bet by a player who raises 2% of his hands.

2. You bet into him on the flop even though you are probably drawing to 2-5 outs.

3. You didn't fold the turn when he continued his aggression.

4. You bluffed into him on the river even though there is a 0% chance of him folding a better hand.

That about covers it. I think folding to the 3-bet pre flop is an option against this player, though you might need to leave the table afterwards if you're concerned about image.

TheMaroon · #6 03-07-2005, 06:31 AM

Folding to a threebet preflop is never ever an option. Ever. You are getting 5-1. Anyone who tells you it is has no idea what they are talking about and will never beat a game above 1/2, if that. You didn't mention how many hands you have on your opponent anyway, his 2% might be a fluke. Even if it wasn't aces is about .4% so he is raising at least AA-JJ and AK. Your KJ is only about a 3.5-1 dog and you are getting 5-1. There is no debate here, you call preflop.

Anyway your play afterwards was atrocious. Why bet the river? What could that possibly accomplish? He isn't going to fold anything better than your hand. He will say "[censored] I got bad beat" and click call. He almost certainly couldn't call anything worse.

You should have threebet the flop and found out where he is.

Jeff W · #7 03-07-2005, 07:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who tells you it is has no idea what they are talking about and will never beat a game above 1/2, if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess me and Michael are doomed to go broke.

[ QUOTE ]
You should have threebet the flop and found out where he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where you're at is beat.

P.S. For what it's worth, I have never folded for 1 more bet pre flop after raising. I think this is the spot to do it.

Your opponent didn't raise. He reraised. And he has position on you. And his Pfr=2%. I will assume the OP had an adequate sample size.

naphand · #8 03-07-2005, 07:51 AM

I think you can certainly call his PFR, a big read like 2% PFR must be reliable. How many hands? your figures are MEANINGLESS without an understanding of their reliability (this could be a 20 hand sample for all we know).

If you are worried about being seriously behind, CR the flop, call the 3-bet and fold Turn unimproved would be my standard line. If called on the flop, I would bet/fold the Turn, if called on the Turn you have to choose between betting or check/calling the River. Which one depends on opponent and the board.

If I really believed the 2% PFR, then I agree with Jeff, this is a spot you could fold PF, though I doubt I ever do.

Brian · #9 03-07-2005, 07:57 AM

I agree with TheMaroon for the most part, although I think that his use of hot/cold simulations to prove his point is a bit off. While KJ may be only a 3.5-1 dog against the range of hands AA-JJ, AK, remember that that is only if the hand is played out until the River, and also that you will be playing out of position for the entirity of the hand, meaning that you'll inevitably miss some bets when you have the best hand and lose some bets when you have the worst hand.

That being said, 6-1 odds to call pre-Flop (remember the Big Blind) are a bit too good to ignore. Couple that with the fact that the 72-2 PokerTracker stats may easily be a fluke, that the guy may be opening up his range of raising hands to defend his Button even if he is a 72-2 player, and that you have the negativity of showing the table you are capable of being pushed around, and I think you have a pretty clear call.

As for the post-Flop play, I try to vary my line in these positions, but I'm not folding top pair at any point, even against a passive player. My two three favorite lines (in order of preference) are:

1) Check-call the Flop, check-call the Turn, bet the River.
2) Check-call the Flop, bet the Turn.
3) Check-raise the Flop, bet the Turn.

For the record, I don't have a problem with the River bet. I am pretty much a 100% believer in Clark's theorm, and I rarely do much checking-calling heads-up first to act on the River unless I'm inducing a bluff regardless of a 4-Flush or not.

Yeah, he won't fold a better hand, but he will call with worse ones, and you can fold easily if raised.

-Brian

SomethingClever · #10 03-07-2005, 12:27 PM

Looking at this in light of day, I think I should have been able to find a turn fold.

I'd still bet the river if I found myself in this position, and call preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can certainly call his PFR, a big read like 2% PFR must be reliable. How many hands? your figures are MEANINGLESS without an understanding of their reliability (this could be a 20 hand sample for all we know).

[/ QUOTE ]

The read was not super solid. Less than 50 hand sample. But it was enough for me to know he was fairly passive preflop and wouldn't be 3-betting trash.