Raising Preflop

[Dhani]

[ QUOTE ]
Its well know that some hands like big pairs and big off suit cards play better in pots contested by few players, because thier expected value and pot equity go down as more opponents are added.

Tell me how you play AA when you raise and receive 9 callers? I would much raither have an 80% equity to win a 5BB pot then a 10% equity to win a 14 or 15BB pot.

Of course a hand like AKs or KQs love big pots, they play well multi-way. but hands like KQo, KJo, or JJ do not.

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My sentiments exactly, Thanks

[soweak.]

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"Its well know that some hands like big pairs and big off suit cards play better in pots contested by few players, because thier expected value and pot equity go down as more opponents are added."

Prove it. This is not well known by me.

"but hands like KQo, KJo, or JJ do not. "
KJo doesn't like multiway pots because it's dominated by AQo when not AK / bigger pair is out and JJ when no bigger pair is out love big pots. Don't they? Prove it one way or the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA vs 9 randomed hands in two-dimes: ( LINK)
Holdem Hi: 201376 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ad 46336 23.01 154940 76.94 100 0.05 0.230
Qd Jd 35012 17.39 166264 82.56 100 0.05 0.174
9s 9h 12600 6.26 186842 92.78 1934 0.96 0.067
8s 8h 28213 14.01 173063 85.94 100 0.05 0.140
4s Kc 6470 3.21 192968 95.82 1938 0.96 0.037
6s 6c 18051 8.96 183225 90.99 100 0.05 0.090
2c 3h 8167 4.06 191840 95.26 1369 0.68 0.044
9c 2h 137 0.07 198036 98.34 3203 1.59 0.008
Kh Th 18625 9.25 180813 89.79 1938 0.96 0.097
7s 7c 22724 11.28 178552 88.67 100 0.05 0.113

Pokerstove enumerates to about 30% equity with 9 random hands

Now... AA vs 2 other random hands
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards ( LINK)
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ad 971323 70.86 395974 28.89 3457 0.25 0.709
Qc Jd 141501 10.32 1225796 89.42 3457 0.25 0.104
9s 9h 254473 18.56 1112824 81.18 3457 0.25 0.186

Pokerstove enumerates AA vs two random hands to 73% equity.

10 * .3 = 3
3 * .7 = 2.1

I win.

edited in :

While you clearly win more often in the second hand, the pot is so much bigger in the first hand. Your equity is 30% of 10 in the first and 70% of 3 in the second, hence my numbers.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
Its well know that some hands like big pairs and big off suit cards play better in pots contested by few players, because thier expected value and pot equity go down as more opponents are added.

[/ QUOTE ]
they "play better" in small pots because they dont make huge hands that often. that doesnt mean they don't have an equity edge against a large field (they do). with many callers, your KQo will win far less often, but it will win much larger pots and has a greater expected value. these hands, especially KQo, are much more difficult to play postflop in multiway pots, which is where the fear comes from.


[ QUOTE ]
Tell me how you play AA when you raise and receive 9 callers? I would much raither have an 80% equity to win a 5BB pot then a 10% equity to win a 14 or 15BB pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is stupid. its a basic math problem and you fumbled the ball. you want everyone and their mom to call your raise because you have a huge edge, and the huge pots will more than compensate for the smaller win %. this is an ultra-fundamental poker mistake you shouldnt be making...


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Of course a hand like AKs or KQs love big pots, they play well multi-way. but hands like KQo, KJo, or JJ do not.

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they love big pots because they now make big flushes....and flushes win a high %. But JJ loves big pots because it can make big full houses, jacks up, and win UI. etc.

[bobhalford]

Looks like 23% equity when you have 9 opponents, not 30% though it's nice to round up.

Certainly AA is a favorite against 9 random hands, but you will pay a lot of money to the river only find you have the worst hand a fair portion of the time. That's why I get nervous playing AA or KK in a big pot with more than 3-4 callers.

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like 23% equity when you have 9 opponents, not 30% though it's nice to round up.

Certainly AA is a favorite against 9 random hands, but you will pay a lot of money to the river only find you have the worst hand a fair portion of the time. That's why I get nervous playing AA or KK in a big pot with more than 3-4 callers.

[/ QUOTE ]


I just looked at Pokerstove enumerates to about 30% equity with 9 random hands.

[Guruman]

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When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever. In fact, when I play poker, I am not hoping anything; this is aside from the point.

When I raise AK UTG I want 9 callers. When I raise J10s on the button I want 2 callers.

I do not want to thin the field. I raise for value. Thinning the field is a myth.

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you're in the bb with the fifteen and thirty two of dinosaurs. a semi-loose/weak sb open limps.

me? I raise, hope for a call and a flop check so that I can bet and sb can fold.

If you check here, you're ignoring your opponent and waiting for a hand IMO.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever. In fact, when I play poker, I am not hoping anything; this is aside from the point.

When I raise AK UTG I want 9 callers. When I raise J10s on the button I want 2 callers.

I do not want to thin the field. I raise for value. Thinning the field is a myth.

[/ QUOTE ]

not true. value raising is great, and you seem to understand it well. isolation raising is also great.

if you're facing a loose limper and hold a hand like K9o in the hijack, you have position and an equity edge against this weak player's range of hands. you also have the opportunity to steal the button and knock out the blinds (or force them to call OOP, etc.). Depending on table conditions, this can be a great raise, where you'd much rather be heads up or three-handed with a blind. the same concept applies to isolating light raisers, weak-tight limpers, and other predictable players.

blind stealing is also an interesting area. you will meet opponents against whom you should raise any 2 cards, because they defend poorly (by folding too much preflop or on the flop). simple math problem. you gradually tighten up as players become tougher, but sometimes this only means throwing away your weakest 25% of hands because the blinds still suck a fair amount. sometimes it means only open-raising your best 35% or so, large on a value basis. it's always a balancing act, but fold equity plays a crucial role, and it's tied to position.

[soweak.]

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10 * .3 = 3
3 * .7 = 2.1

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I dont understand what these number represent. Please explain.

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this is stupid. its a basic math problem and you fumbled the ball. you want everyone and their mom to call your raise because you have a huge edge, and the huge pots will more than compensate for the smaller win %. this is an ultra-fundamental poker mistake you shouldnt be making...

[/ QUOTE ]

I proved in a previous post that you do not have a huge edge, in fact your edge is very small (even though you still have an edge) as you start to add opponents. I would also like to know where my math faltered here. 80% of a 5BB pot yields a EV or 4BBs, while 10% of a 14-15BB pot yields 1.4-1.5BB. Please explain.

[ QUOTE ]
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10 * .3 = 3
3 * .7 = 2.1

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand what these number represent. Please explain.

[ QUOTE ]
this is stupid. its a basic math problem and you fumbled the ball. you want everyone and their mom to call your raise because you have a huge edge, and the huge pots will more than compensate for the smaller win %. this is an ultra-fundamental poker mistake you shouldnt be making...

[/ QUOTE ]

I proved in a previous post that you do not have a huge edge, in fact your edge is very small (even though you still have an edge) as you start to add opponents. I would also like to know where my math faltered here. 80% of a 5BB pot yields a EV or 4BBs, while 10% of a 14-15BB pot yields 1.4-1.5BB. Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are numbers you made up and don't represent anything. Ok?