Is Fatalism Worse or Equal to Religion?

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Is there a single legitimate viewpoint that disputes that there are causes and effects?

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Well, if you consider the belief in free will legitimate...

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are you saying that free will cannot exist in a world where there is "cause and effect"?

[peritonlogon]

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Is there a single legitimate viewpoint that disputes that there are causes and effects?

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Well, if you consider the belief in free will legitimate...

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are you saying that free will cannot exist in a world where there is "cause and effect"?

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I think it's more like, free will cannot exist in a world wher cause and effect, and only cause and effect govern all events..... wouldn't really be free then would it?

[Lestat]

That was interesting! Thanks. Of course, I'm not nearly educated enough in quantum physics or philosophy to put together a valid argument either way. All I know is that it goes against every fiber in my being to think I do not control my fate, actions, or destiny. A pretty weak argument for a belief, I know. But it's one I hold dearly.

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Is there a single legitimate viewpoint that disputes that there are causes and effects?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you consider the belief in free will legitimate...

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are you saying that free will cannot exist in a world where there is "cause and effect"?

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I think it's more like, free will cannot exist in a world wher cause and effect, and only cause and effect govern all events..... wouldn't really be free then would it?

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Right, but clearly they can logically co-exist. Free will is also pretty useless in a world without cause and effect.

Anyway my point was that determinism would be an utterly boring and pointless philosophy if it was merely the acknowledgement of causes and effects as hrmpoker claimed, because this is not really a point of contention.

[hmkpoker]

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That was interesting! Thanks. Of course, I'm not nearly educated enough in quantum physics or philosophy to put together a valid argument either way. All I know is that it goes against every fiber in my being to think I do not control my fate, actions, or destiny. A pretty weak argument for a belief, I know. But it's one I hold dearly.

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You do control your fate.

It just happens that your desire to affect it is pre-determined [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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That was interesting! Thanks. Of course, I'm not nearly educated enough in quantum physics or philosophy to put together a valid argument either way. All I know is that it goes against every fiber in my being to think I do not control my fate, actions, or destiny. A pretty weak argument for a belief, I know. But it's one I hold dearly.

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Well, I think most people would agree that that is the only sane way to go through life. Even if you believe determinism is 100% true, trying to figure out how to base your life on it will make you crazy.

[Lestat]

Silly question, but this applies to physical causes too, correct?

So the big bang exploded and the chain of events started.. Our planet fell into orbit, creatures came into existence, and the plane that eventually would come in for a landing at Chicago's Midway airport and skid off the runway killing a 6 year old child, was all predetermined by the physical properties set in motion by the big bang? And...

Had the pilot caught a bug and a different one took his place who might've deployed the thrust reversers a second sooner preventing the accident... This could've been traced back to the big bang as well?

The 8 ball break analogy does make some sense to me. It's an interesting outlook, one I never gave much thought to before. But I also see problems with it. Or at least, I think there should be problems with it. I'm just not smart enough to find the holes myself.

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Silly question, but this applies to physical causes too, correct?


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I'm sorry but could you clarify what you're asking? Does what apply to physical causes too?

[hmkpoker]

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Had the pilot caught a bug and a different one took his place who might've deployed the thrust reversers a second sooner preventing the accident... This could've been traced back to the big bang as well?

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You are saying something could have happened other than what did happen. In doing so, you are assuming that determinism is false. According to determinism, no other action can take place other than the one that does.

A lot of supporters of free will often say things like "I think the idea that the big bang determines what I eat for cereal in the morning is stupid." That's on par with a Christian arguing against evolution with "I didn't evolve from no monkey." It is practically impossible to predict things like this in accordance with determinism. Picture how hard it is to predict with perfect accuracy where the four ball will end up when you hit the first shot of a pool game. Wouldn't it be stupid for me to say "well, had the four ball ended up here when you hit the cue, wouldn't that disprove determinism?"

well until the "seemingly" random events of certain aspects of quantum mechanics is explained, we're somewhat in the dark in this discussion

as far as i know this is the only problem with fatalism but I'm sure there are many more

(fatalism is like turning on Madden 2006 and setting up a game between 2 bot(computer controlled) teams... you could know which team will win before the games starts(but that's because computers programs can't be random unlike physics(as far as we know)))
---this fatalism has wonderful implications for the sportsbetting world.... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]