Pre-flop Theory Question

A question: if playing 4 or more tables, amidst the almost constant change of players (many of whom have no footprint in either one's notes or in PT), how can these caveats--applying as they do to extremely confined and particular circumstances--be realistically applied? And if they cannot be realistically applied (and as I pose the question, it is obvious I harbor suspicions that they cannot), how can the recommendations that they support be implemented without risk to a bankroll?

The advice to play Axs, amidst other similar plays suggested in SSHE and HEFAP, is accompanied with warnings about the minimal edge such actions offer, under the best of circumstances. If one cannot, except under much less than ordinary circumstances, expect a positive result to said tactics, why bother with them at all?

[Benman]

If you passed on every hand that only has marginally positive expectation, you'd be a very tight player. I wouldn't give you much action on your good hands, thus reducing the expectation on those.

[ohnonotthat]

Three reasons -

1. Poker is [occasionally] still played in cardrooms.

2. You may have no read/notes on your online foes but that does not mean they have none on you.

3. These marginal hands are alot less marginal than the author suggests (author" refers to my assumption that these statements come from SSHE) especially once the holder of these hands gains in ability.

We are born knowing how to play AA profitably and we learn quickly how to do so with KK; Ax/s and the like require skills that are acquired as me grow; the author may or may not have taken this into account - I'm guessing that if he did he minimalized its significance.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
Limit hold'em, not in a blind, and you have a hand worth playing pre-flop. If the "proper" play is to call, how much worse is raising? What's the worst case violation, expectation wise?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is about the cost of a mistake. In the worst case it will cost you the pot. That's why it is usually the safer play to call on the river than to fold. For more, read ToP pages 252ff.

I think that what you are after is something like this


Given that you have a hand, that is getting the right price to call but not to raise, what happens then if you raise

Given that you connect on the flop, you have the best of it, no doubt about it

Usually a hand that can call, but not raise is a drawing hand or a hand in danger of being dominated (An example of the first is 78s and the second is ATo)

I will only look at the drawing hand

Scenario 1
By just calling you are encouraging the players to your right to come in as well .. you have sweetened the pot and they are getting a better price on there calls
If a player to the left should raise, no harm done since everybody will just have to call a single bet and that is most likely not driving anybody out
Since you have a drawing hand, if you hit it you will have a very strong hand, that can stand a lot of callers
The price is right

Scenario 2
You raise ... suddenly you are driving the players on your left out of the pot, since there are very few hands that can cold call a raise ... so most likely they fold or reraise
Now if someone has reraised, limpers before you suddenly have to cold call two bets as well and again ... not very likely
So what has happened is, that you have reduced the price you are getting on your drawing hand

The chances on you connecting with the flop are the same



While I doubt that it is a very big mistake EV wise if we are talking about a single hand ... if done repeatedly it turns into a big leak, that will cost a lot

Which is why you see players once in a while raise with suited connectors for deception, but you see noone doing it on a regular basis

Small EV loss in a single hand ... Big leak over 10000+ hands

[ohnonotthat]

First in from EP with a small pair or small suited-connector in a [very] loose game would be bad spots for raising despite the fact that the pair is definitely playable and the S-C is almost certainly playable.

K-Ts and the like would also be bad raising hands; maybe even worse than small S-Cs since the former is far more likely to be dominated. (7-6 plays badly against K-Q but nowhere near as badly as K-T does).

Big unsuited cards (including A-K) are also bad raising hands if there are already 4+ players in the pot.



I'm not sure which of these is the worst but all are bad.

[AaronBrown]

There are two worst cases to check.

First is if you have an absolutely marginal calling hand. With n players in the pot, your chance of winning is less than 1/n, but close enough that the amount already in the pot makes your call attractive. In this case, by raising you lose the different between 1/n and your chance of winning. That can't be very big preflop in hold'em, but in later stages it can be crucial.

The other bad situation in when you will drive people out of the pot who will pay you if you hit. This also can't be very big preflop in hold'em since even the worst drawing hand can become powerful on the flop, and even the best made had can be undone by a flop.

You can't lose much by raising when you should call preflop in hold'em, while you can lose a lot by calling when you should raise or fold. You can play good poker and never call, but you can't play good poker and always call.