No Limit VS Limit

[thomastem]

My statistics show a substantial trend difference in my earnings per hour between limit and NL. My NL game is the bread winner.

What I'd like to hear about are some common, general areas that players that are strong at NL have difficulty in when they play NL.

Please suggest some adjustments that I can make to my limit play.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Please suggest some adjustments that I can make to my limit play.

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Assuming that you play NL at a level where there are always good games available (which should be the case online), then just play NL only since that is where the highest earn for you is, and spend your time trying to improve your NL game to further increase that earn. Unless it is indeed the case that there are not always good NL games to play, then why devote time to improving yourself in a game that has lower earning potential?

[thomastem]

2 reasons. I play live as well as online and sometimes limit is where it is at. Also I play a high volume of hours each week and the change of pace is good.

[BluffTHIS!]

You have to do what is comfortable with you, but with the larger nl games available online to multitable, I would think you would have to play 100/200 or higher limit to have a higher earn. I don't play limit anymore, only nl and plo, so I can't offer any suggestions for that, but you might want to post this in the high stakes limit holdem forum to get some advice on same.

[AaronBrown]

The primary theoretical difference is that limit favors strong hands, while no limit favors the nuts.

For example, there's an old saying from no-limit five-card draw, "two pair is a good hand, but not good enough." Although two pair would usually be the strongest hand at the table, you can't afford to call with it in no limit. Therefore, you usually don't play for it. If you are dealt two pair you either stand pat and bluff a flush/straight/full house (with a decent chance of winning even if called); or throw the lower pair away to maximize your chance of getting trips. In limit, you'd never throw away the lower pair; you'd call any limit bet with two pair.

Pretty much everyone understands that point, but you have to take it further. If you have a strong hand and someone else may be hoping to get cards to make the nuts, you have to make the large raise early. You need to do everything you can to avoid being in a situation where someone else knows he has you beat. Similarly, you do everything you can to sneak into a nuts situation, bleeding away lots of smaller bets even in longshot situations.

Another consequence of that is you have to be prepared for much longer losing streaks. You can lose all night and make it all up on one hand. In limit, a sustained losing streak is a strong signal to change your game. In no-limit, you have to be willing to stay the course.

Since you're doing better at no-limit, you should consider playing more strong hands with less concern for nuts, letting more players stay in the pot early, drawing out fewer hands, and paying more attention to short-term results to adjust your strategy.

Doing this can improve both your limit AND no-limit games. Players often find a profitable niche in a certain type of game, playing a different game or limit structure helps them learn why the niche is profitable; and how to keep it that way.

[Louie Landale]

I don't think your 2-pair draw discussion has much merit. Surely you can play 2-pair figuring to never invest after the draw. If you are getting stolen from a lot then you'll make a lot more money on your stronger hands. Combine that with drawing to your straight and flushes and you'll find that the opponent isn't going to want to bet into the "1 card draw" very often, with some justification. That means you get to show your hand down winner most of the time.

Throwing away the smaller pair hoping to make trips is routinely rediculous, unless you are SURE you are already up against a bigger 2-pair. Jacks and 3s drawing 1 against AA is better than Jacks drawing 3, Seeesh.

Your argument gains ground if you figure you'll "have to call", reluctantly, all big bets once your hand gets to a certain value. Well, you do not have to call.

- Louie

[thomastem]

Aaron,

Your point is specific to 5 card draw and doesn't necessarily hold true in games like stud or holdem. For example, flopping two pair against a player that consistantly plays any 2 suited with a flush draw on the board is not only strong enough to bet "Big" but would be very wrong not to.

One thing that I've noticed is that I can't punish bad play as much in limit as in NL. Another is that reading an opponent seems to gain more profit in NL than in limit.

I'm hoping someone can point out either some points that I'm missing or suggest new adjustments on these points that I have not tried. Perhaps the answer is simply more potential in NL than limit, if so I can stop wasting time mulling over this question.

[AaronBrown]

It is the traditional advice. Remember, the opener has Jacks or better, and everyone else wants to play against that. A player drawing three to a higher pair than your top has a 27% chance of beating you. You have only a 9% chance of making a full house. Your odds of improving the hand are three times as great drawing to one pair as two pair (of course, some of those "improvements" are to a lower two pair than you had).

If there are three players in the pot, your two pair is likely enough to be beaten that you can't bet aggressively. Trips, on the other hand, can be extremely profitable.

I'm not saying you always throw away the lower pair, but it's often the smart play in no-limit. You'd never do it in limit.

[AaronBrown]

The two pair rule specifically doesn't apply to hold'em or stud, as you say, you know a lot about your opponents' hands. But the general idea that pretty good hands aren't worth much compared to nuts is still true, in no-limit versus limit.

[Louie Landale]

Tossing the lower pair and drawing say to TT does come up in limit, usually when you call and the opener draws 1.

If you have some external reference I'd like to see it. Arguing that you are more likely to improve is true but so what: if you start with a flush and stand pat, you cannot "improve" either. If routinely tossing the smaller pair is correct then so is routinely calling with the medium pair to start with, which I think everyone will agree is hopeless, especially at Jacks or Better. That argues for folding the two small pair, which I agree cannot be very wrong. Yes, don't be playing TsUp against 2 players.

- Louie