Strategy Change - Tired of being a donator!

[johnc]

Been playing really horrible lately live and have put alot of thought into why I've been pissing away my stack. Here's my thoughts:
1) the tables are really loose with consistanlty one or two pf raisers and live stradlers - they show down very questionable hands ie. q10o, a5o, even 84s!!!!
2) I'm sitting there waiting patiently for premo cards, playing them but staying with them too long only to get rivered by longshots.
3) I'm not RAISING with hands I should in later positions (MP3-CO) on these loose tables such as A7s-A10s, KJs, AQo, KQo, 88-JJ -> weak!
4) My bad habit of loose calls on the flop with coordinated boards with middle pair or TPWK is costing me dearly because these loosies stick around in the face of raises while I continue to draw to second or 3rd best hand such as two pair or sets (Do I forget my brain at home?).

Bottom line is this:
1) I'm doing a really crappy job of adjusting to the loose conditions.
2) I'm trying to play only super premium cards and missing out on opportunities to win chips - start playing smaller suited connectors a little earlier such as 34s-78s, small pps 22-66.
3) Fold more more when I'm not getting a good piece of the flop and raising when I do.
4) Get out of the weak tight habit of just calling. See these situations as fold or raise but seldom "just call".
5) Play more drawing hands and stop becoming so in love with my high cards.

Well, that's the long of it. What do you think?

[tradz]

I'm still too much of a fish to give advice, but playing the small pocket pairs for 1 or 2 bets from just about any position has worked well for me. You don't have to get too far outside of your comfort zone to do this. If the flop doesn't hit, easy fold. If it does, you have a good chance of building a huge pot and nobody puts you on your hand.

Also, if all you need to do is check from the BB or half-bet from the SB, that's a great opportunity to play some non-premium hands, if you're not already doing that. The position isn't good after the first round, but when that flop hits...

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
Been playing really horrible lately live and have put alot of thought into why I've been pissing away my stack. Here's my thoughts:
1) the tables are really loose with consistanlty one or two pf raisers and live stradlers - they show down very questionable hands ie. q10o, a5o, even 84s!!!!
2) I'm sitting there waiting patiently for premo cards, playing them but staying with them too long only to get rivered by longshots.
3) I'm not RAISING with hands I should in later positions (MP3-CO) on these loose tables such as A7s-A10s, KJs, AQo, KQo, 88-JJ -> weak!
4) My bad habit of loose calls on the flop with coordinated boards with middle pair or TPWK is costing me dearly because these loosies stick around in the face of raises while I continue to draw to second or 3rd best hand such as two pair or sets (Do I forget my brain at home?).

Bottom line is this:
1) I'm doing a really crappy job of adjusting to the loose conditions.
2) I'm trying to play only super premium cards and missing out on opportunities to win chips - start playing smaller suited connectors a little earlier such as 34s-78s, small pps 22-66.
3) Fold more more when I'm not getting a good piece of the flop and raising when I do.
4) Get out of the weak tight habit of just calling. See these situations as fold or raise but seldom "just call".
5) Play more drawing hands and stop becoming so in love with my high cards.

Well, that's the long of it. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
Read Small Stakes Hold Em by Ed Miller et al.
Repeat 3-4x.

From your comments it definitely sounds like you need to be more aggressive. SSH will show you how.

[johnc]

I have - and worn out a copy, so trust me I'm very familiar with his strategy. The concepts presented don't always apply to every situation - alot, but not every single one. What Miller seems to only glance upon but doesn't really address completely is the aggressive players who really don't care if they win or lose. His approach primarily is great against opponents that you can dominate with aggression coupled with smart strategy. That breaks down seriously in the face of very loose aggression where protecting your hand becomes non-existant. So you're faced with a 3-fold problem: 1) very difficult to read their ultra wide range of holdings therefore know when you're beat for sure 2) hand protection is a non issue - they don't care 4) otherwise profitable hands ie; TPTK, 2-pair really break down in value when faced with draws that you can't protect against ie. multiplayer scenerios.
His strategy does work great against the touristy crowds at the big casinos as I've had much success there but I firmly believe he's much too optimistic and to blindly follow his strategy would at some tables, be a tragic mistake. I really looking for some sage advice from experienced posters - sorry, no offence.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I have - and worn out a copy, so trust me I'm very familiar with his strategy. The concepts presented don't always apply to every situation - alot, but not every single one. What Miller seems to only glance upon but doesn't really address completely is the aggressive players who really don't care if they win or lose. His approach primarily is great against opponents that you can dominate with aggression coupled with smart strategy. That breaks down seriously in the face of very loose aggression where protecting your hand becomes non-existant. So you're faced with a 3-fold problem: 1) very difficult to read their ultra wide range of holdings therefore know when you're beat for sure 2) hand protection is a non issue - they don't care 4) otherwise profitable hands ie; TPTK, 2-pair really break down in value when faced with draws that you can't protect against ie. multiplayer scenerios.
His strategy does work great against the touristy crowds at the big casinos as I've had much success there but I firmly believe he's much too optimistic and to blindly follow his strategy would at some tables, be a tragic mistake. I really looking for some sage advice from experienced posters - sorry, no offence.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offence, but I would say if you cant beat a game in which players make HUGE FTOP errors by calling without regard to pot odds and raising with worse hands, then you probably have some very major leaks in your game.

Get online, get pokertracker, track your stats, and post some hands. This will help major leaks.

In reference to your particular game:

- If there are maniacs in your game who raise/reraise weakly, then go to war with your big hands. Its not that hard.

- If many players will call a raise, then pump your strong draws for value (I suspect you are not doing this). Flush draws and OESDs are GOLDMINES when 6 players call 4 bets on the flop.

[ptmusic]

If I am seated between two loose aggressive maniacs, or if they are both to my left, I usually change seats or tables asap.

But if they are to my right, this is my favorite kind of table. I still try to play solid poker, with a few differences. If someone is raising every single preflop, I will coldcall with a hand I would normally limp in with (like J9s). And I'll often let these bozos do the leading for me, then pop them on the later streets. That keeps my hands disguised as much as their's are.

Psychologically, it helps me to think about my session's bankroll in these situations: if a "normal" swing at a "normal" table is +or- 20BB, then I double that figure at a "maniac" table. So at, say, a 6/12 table, it is easy to have a +or- $500 swing!!

It hurts most of the time, but hit a couple big pots and you are doing well.

-ptmusic

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
I have - and worn out a copy, so trust me I'm very familiar with his strategy. The concepts presented don't always apply to every situation - alot, but not every single one. What Miller seems to only glance upon but doesn't really address completely is the aggressive players who really don't care if they win or lose. His approach primarily is great against opponents that you can dominate with aggression coupled with smart strategy. That breaks down seriously in the face of very loose aggression where protecting your hand becomes non-existant. So you're faced with a 3-fold problem: 1) very difficult to read their ultra wide range of holdings therefore know when you're beat for sure 2) hand protection is a non issue - they don't care 4) otherwise profitable hands ie; TPTK, 2-pair really break down in value when faced with draws that you can't protect against ie. multiplayer scenerios.
His strategy does work great against the touristy crowds at the big casinos as I've had much success there but I firmly believe he's much too optimistic and to blindly follow his strategy would at some tables, be a tragic mistake. I really looking for some sage advice from experienced posters - sorry, no offence.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but I don't think you really got as much out of reading the book as you should have, based on your questions. I recommended the book because I assumed you hadn't read it. I'm surprised that you have read it as thoroughly as you claim.

1) hands like 34s will definitely lose money when played from up front, especially in loose aggressive games like the ones you've described. All pocket pairs are great for games like this because you're going to get a ton of action when you hit your set. From early position, hands like small suited connectors will end up paying too much before the flop, then paying through the nose on every street after flopping a draw.

2) If players are limping in with anything, why aren't you raising with hands like JJ or KJs or TT? You have a preflop equity edge, push it. Punish them for limping in with garbage.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sitting there waiting patiently for premo cards, playing them but staying with them too long only to get rivered by longshots.

[/ QUOTE ]

3) How is this a leak? Getting beaten on the river with premium hands happens all the time in loose games. You're obviously not staying too long with them if it's happening on the river, and folding premium hands for one bet in big pots is usually a losing proposition.

4) Like ishmael said.. push your big draws! Consider your equity of a hand like the nut flush draw, 2 overcards, and a backdoor nut straight draw. In aggressive multiway pots, you should frequently be raising back through the field to push the equity edge of a hand like this. When you're 33% to win by the river in a 5 way pot, you make money on every bet that goes in 5-ways.

[johnc]

Thanks. I am painfully aware that I wuss out at value betting situations and don't get as much out of draws as I can if at all. My intentions are not to start playing small suited connectors up front but mainly incorporate them into middle & later postion play. I still however, see that playing off suit big cards except AK, AQ, maybe KQ in the face of raises or potential raises after coming in cannot be profitable under these circumstances - they're too easy to crack in multiway pots unless you can see the flop cheap (which is typically not possible ie. live straddles, ect.). The posts in this thread have given me alot of insight and I trying to get away from the "TPTK survival til the river mentality" and start putting the heat to my strong draws so I can get payed when they do hit.