Pot Limit Stud8 Hand from Barry Greenstein's Book

[Bill Murphy]

I finally found Barry's book yesterday. For some reason B&N didn't have it in the poker section; they got it next the billiards books [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]. Barry obviously put a great deal of time and thought into this book, especially in the selection and placement of the photographs.... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

At $25, I would recommend it; hey, it's Barry Greenstein. But I would also recommend sitting down with it at the store and flipping through it for 15-20 minutes or so, as it is quite a bit different than any other poker book, from its actual physical structure onward. Make sure you're not expecting something else.

As has been said many times by BG and others: ****IT IS NOT A HOW TO PLAY, SUPER/SYSTEM 3, or 2+2 TYPE BOOK****

Anyway here's the hand(I don't have the book so I'm prolly get some particulars wrong but hopefully not the main points).

Pot limit stud8(dealer's choice home game, 7 handed), $1 ante. Hero & Villain both have about $3K.

3rd St
Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain: X X 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain raised the bringin to $7, Hero and another player(who subsequently folded on 4th; assume no relevant cards exposed) called. Pot now $28.

4th St
Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villain: X X 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Villain bets $28, Hero calls.

5th St
Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villain: X X 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero checks, Villain bets $84, Hero calls.

5th St
Hero: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain: X X 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero bets $252, Villain thinks a bit then calls.

7th: Hero catches an irrelevant card and bets $750, Villain raises another $1800 or so, enough to put Hero all in. Now what?

Semi-hint: Barry actually included this hand for non-technical reasons, and I actually posted it for reaons other than Hero's final river decision( [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]I know, I'm SO mysterious.... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]).

[mscags]

The only way you aren't getting at least half of this is if villian has a wheel AND a flush. I'm calling this every time.

[bigredlemon]

Hero has a 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so the only hand we're scooped by is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Call would be the obvious answer. Any dolt can write a book with obvious examples, so I presume the real answer is fold, and we're going to find out why when someone posts the reasoning. Even after hearing what I presume will be a brilliant analysis, I think i'd still call here 100% of the time, expecting to usually get half but scooping more than villain.

[beta1607]

With no reads I call here every day and twice on sundays. There is exactly one card villan could have caught where you are not getting at least 1/2 the pot back and it seems to me that they are just trying to push you out of the pot, of course I am certainly not a WCP so this is likely wrong.

On a side note, how cool would it be to be a WCP and play 7Stud with Ted Forrest and Larry Flynt and have crazy home games that play PL stud8 with such insanely deep stacks.

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
$1 ante. Hero & Villain both have about $3K

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this stike anyone else as funny?

[mscags]

I was just thinking about that the other day. I wonder if people like Barry, Doyle and the likes have people over to their mansions for home games. Something "small" like 10K or something Dealers Choice. I'd like to see a 10K game of "baseball" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Bill Murphy]

Barry did mention that Hero & Villain had been absolutely killing the game that night. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Bill Murphy]

BRL nailed it, of course. "Reverse engineering"(i.e. famous player includes it in book, "correct" play seems "obvious", etc) on this hand leads to Hero needing to fold to the raise. Villain had A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the hole.

This hand took place in 1975, while Barry was in college. He was Villain, and Hero was a philosophy professor. I don't have the book, like I said, so I'm going to try mightily to correctly quote from it(I'm not 100% sure Hero had the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but I don't think it matters. Hero's hole cards' suits aren't revealed so I think he had no flush draw himself).

Barry put this hand in an odds/math chapter, as an example of "people using math to justify bad plays"(again, don't hold me to exact quoting from the book).

After Barry raised him all in on the river, Prof thought for a minute then exposed his hand to everyone. He announced, "The only way you scoop me is w/three small diamonds in the hole, and I've just figured that it's over 1000-1[ED: uh, no it isn't] against that. You're such a lucky little sh1t I think you have it but with those odds I have to call."

After Barry showed the flush Prof screamed, "You're a @#&* math genius. Didn't you know what the odds were?" Barry: "I figured it was a lock. I'm not going to call on 6th w/out a two way draw. When you bet out big on the river I knew you had the straight, so my raise should've verified I made it."

Again, I hope I'm not severely misquoting or leaving out an important detail. Who knows, maybe I'm missing the whole point.

What I don't think I'm missing is that Prof's river bet is absolutely horrible. What's Barry going to call[or raise!] with that Prof scoops? Only unimproved rolled up 3's or pocket 55's, which actually ARE close to 1000-1 against each, if Barry plays stud8 w/o looking at his hole cards. We'll assume Prof didn't consider Barry a deranged maniac prone to wild bluffs. I don't think Barry calls $750 to win $378 w/a raggy 7 or 8 low.

Barry scoops only with some combination of A246 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the hole, and based on how the hand was played his most likely by far hole cards were two low diamonds. The only other possibilities are 64o, A4o, A2o, 33, or 55. Remember this is pot limit, with VERY deep stacks. Barry's not calling 6th w/o a scoop draw, and a good one at that.

Now, what's Barry going to raise with? This was a 1975 college game, so I doubt there were many he knows-I know-he knows-I know considerations, at least past the 3rd level, nor longterm meta-game prospects. Both Barry & Prof were huge winners for the night. Is Barry really going to bluff it all off on one hand of stud8? PLH or NLHE is a diff story.

It's prolly still EV for Prof to call the river. I'll let somebody figure out the times Barry has a flush w/no low, a wheel, a six or seven high str8t, and trips(which just call the $750). But I don't see how betting the river was EV. Seems Prof was risking $2550 to win $378.

[bigredlemon]

Interesting reasoning. I think the prof could reasonably put Barry on a flush but not necessarily one that scoops against him. While math could be used to justified bad calls, I'm not yet convinced that is the case here. (The math might be off but I think it's still a call.)

Given Hero's board, I'd think villain could raise with any flush higher than J. I don't think Barry needs a hand to scoop against Hero to raise if there's any reasonable chance that villain might fold. Given how badly villain bricked, Hero would be correct to bet large with a made low and a pair, and could easily be betting the river with a pair and a low or even two small pairs and a busted low. A strong raise could knock Hero off many possible hands.

[Bill Murphy]

I agree w/a lot of your possibilities, to an extant. Boy, the deep stacks and pot limit structure sure make 7th a minefield. Better know your player. Pretty strong(by both), if Barry'd caught another J on the end, goes all in for $2550, and scoops Prof's small pair & busted low, chops w/Prof's small pair and rag low(or gets him to fold such a hand), or gets Prof to fold 4's & 2's!

I've never played PLS8, of course. Hopefully, some who have, or Ray Zee, or even Barry will comment.