More Propaganda

[nicky g]

What I find interesting is that a good deal of the pro-Israeli religious right are quite obviously anti-semites at heart - they just hate arabs even more.

[ACPlayer]

THought experiment:

What would the Israeli reaction be if the Palestinians were to suddenly embrace the wall, enclose all existing settlements in the westbank, and also plant guard posts along the wall with armed "security forces" who would keep out forcibly any settlers who want to build new settlements in the occupied areas?

[ACPlayer]

Actually, I have read somewhere, sorry cant cite it, that there is presently a "marriage of convenience" between christian fundamentalists (who have a long history of hating the christ killers) and the Jews. It has to do with keeping access to holy land available.

[B-Man]

I know many jews (including Israelis BTW) who are against a lot of what you have said in this and other thread. Should I be considering them as Anti-Semites? Is voicing an opinion that is against that of the right wing Israel government the same thing as being racist and/or anti-semite?

I never said or implied and of the foregoing. But there are several posters on this site that have shown a strong and consistent bias against Israel. Whether or not they are anti-semetic is a different question and impossible to prove one way or the other, but whether they are biased against Israel is clear.

Cyrus, Alger and Nicky consistently twist the facts and tell only one side of the story to make Israel appear to be the party in the wrong. They also feel it is wrong for Israel to retaliate against terrorists or take preventative measures against terrorism. Basically, in their minds, the Palestinians can do no wrong and Israel can do no right.

That is bias.

[B-Man]

That's not working "both ways." That is a very different scenario, for reasons that should be obvious, and a poor analogy.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that actions which will reduce terrorism draw criticism from the pro-Palestinian factions.

[ACPlayer]

OK. Perhaps you have a point.

Do you think that if Nicky, Alger and Cyrus had been around when the Jews of Warsaw were being put into the Ghetto's they would have said -- "go for it -- get em" ??

If Nicky, Alger and Cyrus were to have opposed an armed, forceful crackdown of the general Jewish population in the holy land, following the bombing of the King David Hotel they would be anti-british?

Do you believe the Nicky, Cyrus and Alger condone Palestinian terrorism by anything they have said in these posts?

Is supporting the rights of the general Palestinian population to live without having the barrel of a tank pointed at them so wrong? Or supporing the rights of the farmers having their property confiscated for a wall a sign of Anti-Jewish bias.

BTW for those interested the word Semite includes Arabs - so being anti-semite is being anti-arab.

[nicky g]

"Basically, in their minds, the Palestinians can do no wrong and Israel can do no right."

Crap. I've repeatedly said that the suicide bombings are wrong, both morally and strategically, and that Arafat is a corrupt old fool - and so have the others. The Palestinians can and do do plenty of wrong - my point in my posts is that at heart, Israeli occupation, racism and theft of land is the main cause of the situation.

On the other hand I don't think you've ever admitted that Israel has been guily of any bad behaviour towards the Palestinians - every shooting, bulldozing, locking out and act of oppression is a defence against terrorism or the Palestinians' fault. I understand that you see the Palestinain attitude as the root of the problem, and we can debate that, but why can't you admit that what Sharon did in the Lebanon was wrong, that shooting unarmed protestors is wrong, that building a wall that cuts deep into Palestinian's territory and isolates farmers from their crops, villages from their water supplies etc etc etc is wrong? Go on, admit that Israel has done some bad things too. You'll feel better about it in the long run.

[ACPlayer]

Why is it a poor analogy?

The Palestinians have long complained about the settlers. To right wing Israeli the Settlers are fighters on the front line, just as to the right wing Palestinians the suicide bombers are fighters on the front line.

Realize that initially Sharon was opposed to the wall but only gave in recently. The reason he was opposed is so that there was no well defined line. The wall is a defeat for certain right wing groups as they dont want any sort of line before the Jordan river (and some want it beyond the Jordan river!). As their goal is to settle and claim for the Jews all the lands that are mentioned in the Torah as part of the holy lands(and of course subject to interpretation - where exactly is the point where Moses received word from god for example).

[B-Man]

On the other hand I don't think you've ever admitted that Israel has been guily of any bad behaviour towards the Palestinians - every shooting, bulldozing, locking out and act of oppression is a defence against terrorism or the Palestinians' fault. I understand that you see the Palestinain attitude as the root of the problem, and we can debate that, but why can't you admit that what Sharon did in the Lebanon was wrong, that shooting unarmed protestors is wrong, that building a wall that cuts deep into Palestinian's territory and isolates farmers from their crops, villages from their water supplies etc etc etc is wrong? Go on, admit that Israel has done some bad things too. You'll feel better about it in the long run.

I've said plenty of times (though not lately) that actions taken by Israel have been wrong. Some of their responses to terrorist acts, even though some response was justified, have been excessive. At times, the collateral damage from some of their actions has been so great that the action prob. shouldn't have been undertaken.

As for what Sharon did in Lebanon, I don't think either of us know enough of the facts to say with certainty what exactly he was responsible for. I also don't think Sharon is the world's greatest politician, a great leader, or even close. But I do think he has his country's best interests at heart, and for the moment we are stuck with him, so we better get used to him.

The wall is a response to three years of suicide bombings. What is worse, separating some farmers from crops and cutting off territory, or murdering innocent people? Is it wrong to do the former if it will prevent the latter? I can't imagine how you could actually believe that is so.

[B-Man]

Do you think that if Nicky, Alger and Cyrus had been around when the Jews of Warsaw were being put into the Ghetto's they would have said -- "go for it -- get em" ??

No, I don't think so and have no reason to think so.

If Nicky, Alger and Cyrus were to have opposed an armed, forceful crackdown of the general Jewish population in the holy land, following the bombing of the King David Hotel they would be anti-british?

Not neccessarily. I never said that because you supported one side in a particular instance, that you were conclusively biased again the other side in all instances. However, if you are consistently biased for one side in many instances... I think that shows something.

Do you believe the Nicky, Cyrus and Alger condone Palestinian terrorism by anything they have said in these posts?

Nicky and Cyrus, no. Alger, not really, though some things he has said are pretty imflamatory and could be read that way. However, all three have consistently opposed Israeili responses to terrorism, including preventative measures such as border closings, targetted assasinations, and of course the wall being built. If you are against measures which prevent terrorism, does that mean you indirectly support it? Do they actually think these preventative measures are worse than the terrorist acts they are designed to prevent?

Is supporting the rights of the general Palestinian population to live without having the barrel of a tank pointed at them so wrong? Or supporing the rights of the farmers having their property confiscated for a wall a sign of Anti-Jewish bias.

I support those rights, too. I also support the right of Israel to live in peace and security. One can not happen without the other. Israel is not going to lay down their weapons until the terrorism stops. They are not going to stop taking preventative measures against it until the terrorism stops.