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#81
11-29-2005, 10:24 AM
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So, it *is* about money !
[ QUOTE ]
You picked an obvious violation of freedom by government [and not an economic one]. [/ QUOTE ] Don't tell me. Tell it to the other guy . He seems to disagre with you: [ QUOTE ] Religious persecution is an economic violation since it's a violation of property rights - assuming you're practicing on private property, where the owner approves. [/ QUOTE ] That's fantastic. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] 
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#82
11-29-2005, 10:26 AM
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Re: Economic Freedom vs Social justice
Here is an article which is along the same lines as what I'm saying.
Also, there is a passage from the Bible, Ephesians 22-23, which reads: "Wives, submit to your own husband as to the lord, For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church." And from the male psychology perspective I offer this book , which has received praise from religious right groups for its illuminating perspective on a man's rightful role in the family and society.
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#83
11-29-2005, 10:33 AM
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Re: So, it *is* about money !
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You picked an obvious violation of freedom by government [and not an economic one]. [/ QUOTE ] Don't tell me. Tell it to the other guy . He seems to disagre with you: [ QUOTE ] Religious persecution is an economic violation since it's a violation of property rights - assuming you're practicing on private property, where the owner approves. [/ QUOTE ] That's fantastic. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] When government restricts your use of your own land, the value of that land decreases. The market value of that land will also decrease, since the pool of buyers for that land will decrease by the number of people who would have seeked to use the property for the restricted use. You buy some waterfront property with the intention of building a house. After you buy, but before construction starts, the government puts a building restriction on the property because a rare bird might have been spotted somewhere in the area. Your land is now basically worthless. What's the difference between building a house and practicing your religion?
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#85
11-29-2005, 11:32 AM
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Re: Is everything about money with you ?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Social justice" is usually a codeword for communism anyway. If by "social justice" you just mean actual fairness and equality of opportunity throughout society, I would argue that it is inseparable from economic freedom anyway. Notice that most of the incidents of state-condoned injustices take the form of economic violations anyway. [/ QUOTE ] I see. So when, for example, the state forbids me from exercising my religious practices, this is an "economic violation", right? [/ QUOTE ] Cyrus, natedogg used the words "usually" and "most", hence your example and riposte are inappropriate and misdirected.
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#86
11-30-2005, 12:08 AM
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Re: Is everything about money with you ?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Social justice" is usually a codeword for communism anyway. If by "social justice" you just mean actual fairness and equality of opportunity throughout society, I would argue that it is inseparable from economic freedom anyway. Notice that most of the incidents of state-condoned injustices take the form of economic violations anyway. [/ QUOTE ] I see. So when, for example, the state forbids me from exercising my religious practices, this is an "economic violation", right? ...Soon, you will reach such an advanced state of mind that you will be conversing only in numbers, preceded by the dollar sign. [/ QUOTE ] Others have sufficiently reminded you of your poor reading comprehension, which you constnatly display on this forum. I said "most", not all. But regardless, it is true that most of the state-enforced "injustices" take the form of economic coercion. Making blacks ride in the back of the bus, etc. all forms of segregation are enforced via economic controls. Have you ever heard of a POLL TAX? You leftists are usually obsessed with that one. The state was able to maintain apartheid by ... GASP ... creating economic violations that served to maintain an unjust tyranny. What could be more clear than that? Social injustice usually takes the form of or is maintained through economic injustice. It's not that hard to understand. Licensure and "fair wage" laws and the like are no different. These are economic freedoms that are indistinguishible from my social freedoms when put into practice. What could be more of a social freedom than my choice of how I want to make a living? I can't wait to see how your poor reading comprehension ends up interpreting this one. natedogg
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#87
11-30-2005, 01:35 AM
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Re: Economic Freedom vs Social justice
I haven't read the other replies yet, but "social justice" is both a loaded term and relative to interpretation.
Do you think that an even wealth distribution is a necessary condition for acheiving social justice?
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#88
11-30-2005, 03:27 AM
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Thick As A Brick
[ QUOTE ]
Others have sufficiently reminded you of your poor reading comprehension, which you constnatly display on this forum. [/ QUOTE ] It's not the reading here that is the problem, it's rather the writing. More accurately, the uncritical semi-digestion of ideas such as Hayek's (who passes as a philosopher in some dorms, Gawd help us!), Milton Friedman's or (yep, stil with us) Ayn Rand's. The core objective when contesting power is ...power, of course. Which means, first and foremost, political power. A significant number of folks, in studying Economics, give a cursory look to the socio-historical aspect and concentrate on the mathematics. Yet they get BAs and PhDs. Although it seems self-evident and redundant to say it, political power dictates economic power, which, in turn, influences political power. On the level of nations and societies (per PVN, they do not exist, but indulge me!), economic power usually translates quite well into political influence. But political power, which comes from a combination of factors but can summed up as who gets to be in the driver's seat, is where it all comes from. Lenin did not order the bolsheviks to get rich and multiply. He stormed the Winter Palace! (And then he tried to run the Soviet economy...)
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#89
11-30-2005, 03:33 AM
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Re: Thick As A Brick
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Others have sufficiently reminded you of your poor reading comprehension, which you constnatly display on this forum. [/ QUOTE ] It's not the reading here that is the problem, it's rather the writing. More accurately, the uncritical semi-digestion of ideas such as Hayek's (who passes as a philosopher in some dorms, Gawd help us!), Milton Friedman's or (yep, stil with us) Ayn Rand's. The core objective when contesting power is ...power, of course. Which means, first and foremost, political power. A significant number of folks, in studying Economics, give a cursory look to the socio-historical aspect and concentrate on the mathematics. Yet they get BAs and PhDs. Although it seems self-evident and redundant to say it, political power dictates economic power, which, in turn, influences political power. On the level of nations and societies (per PVN, they do not exist, but indulge me!), economic power usually translates quite well into political influence. But political power, which comes from a combination of factors but can summed up as who gets to be in the driver's seat, is where it all comes from. Lenin did not order the bolsheviks to get rich and multiply. He stormed the Winter Palace! (And then he tried to run the Soviet economy...) [/ QUOTE ] Get some sleep. You're babbling. And your comments sound dangerously close to advocating the tyranny of the majority, which I'm sure you don't really support, being a proper leftist and all. WAIT! That's what the left is all about. From Lenin to Che to Chavez, the tyranny of the majority is justified by the few who claim to be the "will of the people". I forgot. Never mind. If "the people" want it ,it must be right. What a horrifying political philosophy. Dammit, now *I'm* babbling. I'm going to sleep. natedogg
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#90
11-30-2005, 05:44 AM
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Social Justice
The problem when asking a question about "social justice" and "economic freedom" is that the question pre-supposes that society has a role to play in determing justice when it comes to economics.
ie, it implies that society collectively has a role to play in assigning incomes or value to individual's work. i don't think it does - i believe that it is just for people to be rewarded according (broadly) to their contribution to society. i feel that the best way to do that is through the free market. hence, economic freedom delivers social justice. irving kristol wrote about this much more eloquently than i could.
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Linear Mode
