why does sklansky spend so much time on the philos section?and other?s

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Why do you keep puting words in my mouth?
Seriously.

"The intelligent design movement is trying to prove #1. If not by hard proof yet maybe through logical inference(which you use everyday in all kinds of situations so please don't start on that). After #1 the rest come easier."

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That's ridiculous. ID is trying to "prove" a supreme being created the universe, and thus it follows that Jesus is his Son and died for our sins and we have eternal life and ...

No, sir. That doesn't follow. Maybe "the rest come easier" means that once you are fooled into accepting one theory without evidence, it becomes easier to accept even more far-fetched myths without evidence. If this is your point, then I agree and that is why ID is dangerous to teach.

[Jeff V]

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Maybe "the rest come easier" means that once you are fooled into accepting one theory without evidence

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OK I'm done. If yoyu want to debate fine, but I can't keep arguing when you continually refuse to be rational.

[siegfriedandroy]

If you read a little bit between the lines (actually, i think the question is stated fairly explicitly), you will see that i am asking that question solely in connection with the philosophical implications of atheism.

If you, as an atheist, woke up tomorrow and began fanatically teaching dianetics, or ID, or that the moon is made up of green cheese, I believe you would be no less rational than in desiring that evolution be taught. If you cannot understand why, then you simply do not understand some simple fundamental implications of materialistic philosophy, namely that ultimately, nothing matters, especially where the universe came from. Even if evolutionary theory were true, what does it matter whether or not people know this true. It would serve zero value to society in knowing this. Again, I'd propose that even in an atheistic universe, it would be more beneficial for all to be truly Christian than for all to be atheist. Hitler and Stalin (two atheists) were, along with Mao (probably an atheist, im not sure), were responsible for more death than anyone else in the history of the universe.

You say you desire your kids and for people generally to basically 'not be ignorant' and know the truth about our origins. Please tell me why this truly matters. You can give me all your subjective reasons (as you tried to do), but they are no more valuable than another atheist who says he wants everyone to believe in creation (even though he knows evolution is true). If you just try to think a little bit deeper, perhaps you will know what im really saying.

[siegfriedandroy]

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I dont see how chez possibly wins this pot. First, he misunderstands Jeff's burden of proof point in his second sentence. Also, he fails to address either of Jeff's questions about the origin of the big bang or microevolution. I dont even think chez wins the tiny side pot.

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Jeff and most other Christians don't apply the same burdens of proof on the words of the Bible as they do on say, a theory of evolution. Look at your own statement: you want proof of what originated the big bang, but accept the origin of God as eternal and "just there" with zero proof. And you don't see that??? Open thine eyes.

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kid, please do not be as illogical as the theta dude, or the poster that starts with A (cant remember the name). My first sentence merely addressed how Chez misinterpreted Jeff's original question. Secondly, the questions were not mine, but Jeff's. I did not ask where the big bang came from; jeff did. I merely quoted his questions, and pointed out that Chez did not address them; therefore Chez probably wins no portion of the pot. So how, from the above quote, can you possibly tell me what I believe or do not believe about either God or evolution??? You atheists in this thread are not good at basic reading comprehension, that is for certain. Kid, I almost wanted to give you more credit than the others in this thread, but you are shooting your own foot here. Hopefully your subsequent responses (which i am about to read) are more sensible. I did like your 'pot' analogy, though, even though you did give it to the wrong guy!

[siegfriedandroy]

How about this, lucky? Are you familiar with the Kalam cosmological argument? It's something to the effect of, "All things that had a beginning must have been created (or had a cause." The Big Bang (the beginning of the universe) therefore had a cause. God, though, by definition, had no beginning and thus was not 'caused'. Thus, using the same test for the universe and for God, only one needs to have been caused. How does that strike you?

The question, of course, remains. Who created the Big Bang? I believe it was God. What is your belief?

[siegfriedandroy]

Just playing around, Chez! I always seem to lose the big pots, myself. Flopped nut set the other night (10,8,2 rainbow). 3 bet pf, 1 bet on flop, 2 on turn. I lose on river to donk who PICKED UP a gut shot on the turn and hit his j5 on the river. BAAAADD BBEATT.

[siegfriedandroy]

Do you believe that the big bang was the beginning of the universe, or that the universe existed before it? I believe Russell believed the universe was eternal. To many scientists, the big bang clearly implies or perhaps explicitly shows that the universe had a definite beginning, some near 20 million years ago. What evidence is there that God had such a beginning. What evidence do you have that God is not eternal? What evidence do you have that God does not exist?

[siegfriedandroy]

should be both, imo

[siegfriedandroy]

kid, as an atheist, why is it 'dangerous' for the general population to believe incorrectly about the universe? Does it really matter? In 100 years, it will mean nothing. Why do you care? Why not believe crazy myths yourself. What harm can that cause in your atheistic world view?

[siegfriedandroy]

so then what is the difference between atheism and agnosticism? How is atheism different? I thought agnostics believed that they simply dont know. Perhaps they believe further that it's IMPOSSIBLE to know.