*Official* WPT Borgata Poker Open thread

[PuckNPoker]

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Wow. That is so uncalled for. I honestly thought Josh played fairly well up to that hand. Lets not jump to conclusions based on one hand. I thought his call against Phil Ivey was a great one because he figures to have a coin-flip chance and how often do you get such a great chance to knock out Phil. Phil would have easily been the most dangerous opponent there if he accumulated some more chips.

Second, how about Josh losing the minimum possible when David flopped two pair with his A-7 and Josh flopped top pair with his A-J. Josh could have been slowplaying it until the river to come back with a big raise but that 7 on the river was a scare card of sorts.

Thirdly, he made a great laydown with his pocket fives against Daniel's pocket queens. Reminds me of the hand from last year's WSOP where Arieh laid down his made flush because the river card paired the board and he instantly had John Murphy on a made full house. So, it's only fair to mention some of his great laydowns and not just one bad play. Don't get me wrong, I felt he really misplayed the hand as well but that's no-limit for you, one mistake and you're done.

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Josh played bad. The 33 was a bad call and he said it himself. If you put Ivey on a range of hands, any reasonable range where he makes a move, then calling with 33 is a bad move. It wasnt the fact that he went in with a coinflip, it was the fact that he went in hoping it was a coinflip.

The AJ vs A7 hand he did well. And the 55 hand wasnt a "great" laydown by any stretch.

[riffraff]

Personally I dont think it was a slowroll. There was a flop to consider (not like he waited a long time pre-flop with AA then said "CALL!! HA!") I think he was just making sure that DW was for sure "all in" and that he read the flop right. DW was mad that he got outplayed and let the "nice slowroll" comment slip. Seemed fine to me.

[akudlac]

I agree with you.

BTW, is there any way to slow roll without the nuts? I thought it was pretty confined to the river with the winning hand.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. That is so uncalled for. I honestly thought Josh played fairly well up to that hand. Lets not jump to conclusions based on one hand. I thought his call against Phil Ivey was a great one because he figures to have a coin-flip chance and how often do you get such a great chance to knock out Phil. Phil would have easily been the most dangerous opponent there if he accumulated some more chips.

Second, how about Josh losing the minimum possible when David flopped two pair with his A-7 and Josh flopped top pair with his A-J. Josh could have been slowplaying it until the river to come back with a big raise but that 7 on the river was a scare card of sorts.

Thirdly, he made a great laydown with his pocket fives against Daniel's pocket queens. Reminds me of the hand from last year's WSOP where Arieh laid down his made flush because the river card paired the board and he instantly had John Murphy on a made full house. So, it's only fair to mention some of his great laydowns and not just one bad play. Don't get me wrong, I felt he really misplayed the hand as well but that's no-limit for you, one mistake and you're done.

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First of all, I said what I said fairly gently.

Second, you're wrong. He played poorly, plain and simple. The 33 hand justifies my inference that he was outclassed at the table in that you would never make that play if you thought you were in the same league as your opponents. You're HOPING it's a coinflip, and a good chunk of the time, you're dominated. What on earth is good about CALLING in this position?

Arieh impressed me in that he was aware of how poorly he played, and readily admitted his mistakes. I honestly think that is the mark of a person of higher personal integrity than I had previously given him credit for. I was impressed by his demeanor as he bowed out.

None of this negates the fact that the bluff was a clear sign of some massive malfunction in his brain. The only conceivable reason for making the play is so esoteric that I didn't even bother bringing it up originally: Perhaps he believed that it was so obvious that Negreanu was calling, that Negreanu himself could conceivably give Arieh credit for a hand based upon the fact that he would know that Arieh would know that Negreanu was calling, and would never put any chips into the pot unless it was a solid value bet, etc etc.

But there's very little chance this was happening, so I didn't bring it up.

Anyway, I think Arieh is a better player than he showed us at the Borgata, plain and simple.

[microbet]

I think Negreanu outplayed Williams.

Negreanu wasn't really as aggressive as it might seem. He would bet weak hands and get some money in the pot and then when Williams would make a huge move, he would usually let go. They were not tiny wins, but they weren't huge either, and they put Negreanu in position to really cash in when he hit a big hand.

[Rushmore]

The reason people get so pissed off about getting slow rolled should be obvious: It is the slow-roller's intention to increase your suffering.

It's a reprehensible, horrible thing to do to someone, and the only people who do it tend to be scumbags.

Guess you wouldn't have minded the Mike Matusow "Cohones" speech, either, huh?

In my book, when someone goes out of his way to try to show you up or make you suffer unnecessarily, that person is a scumbag.

Just for the record, I don't actually believe that Negreanu purposely slow-rolled. I think he probably has a hard and fast rule to take at least a two-beat pause before making huge tournament decisions, which is, of course, a good policy.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone here is way too sensitive, I feel pity for anyone who has to play on live TV. There is going to be a chart coming out showing what hands you are "slowrolling" if you happen to wait 5-10 seconds before putting all your money in with them.

Whenever someone moves allin I want to make absolute sure I heard them correctly too. There is absolutley nothing to gain by calling an allin quickly headsup. I often take about 5-10 seconds just to make sure of everything, no matter how obvious it may be.

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I agree with this.

But, again, just for the record, actual slow-rollers (and you know the difference) are the scum of the earth.

[daryn]

i hear you, i know the opinion exists, and honestly i would never intentionally slowroll. i just don't understand why people get that worked up about it..

OH U THOUGHT U WON BUT TURNS OUT NOT? OMG!

[Shanemex]

I don't think it was that bad of a call. There was almost 600k in the pot and it cost him about 320k to call. If you put Ivey's range of hands as AA-TT, AKs-AJs, AKo-AJo then you are only a 3-2 dog getting almost 2-1 odds on the call. Even if you put him on AA-88, AKs-AQs, AKo-AQo then you're a 2-1 dog, which makes it a very close call.

[Hold'me]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it was that bad of a call. There was almost 600k in the pot and it cost him about 320k to call. If you put Ivey's range of hands as AA-TT, AKs-AJs, AKo-AJo then you are only a 3-2 dog getting almost 2-1 odds on the call. Even if you put him on AA-88, AKs-AQs, AKo-AQo then you're a 2-1 dog, which makes it a very close call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Josh definitely took into account that Phil was the short stack at the table and just a few hands earlier was moved off his hand by an all-in re-raise from David. Super-aggressive players like Phil need chips to make their usual plays and it's extremely likely he's making a move with A-K to A-J. If Phil flips over a higher pocket pair so be it, but a 50-50 opportunity to knock out one of the more dangerous players at the table is something I'd take any day. I guess you 2+2er's assume you'll outplay Phil later, keep dreaming guys.