How many people do you want in when you have AA,KK?

[maurile]

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Contrary to what some of you have suggested, the fact that many hands will correctly fold against you does not benefit you.

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Yes it does compared to a showdown simulation! A simulation has every hand going to the river and of course it hurts your equity that every backdoor draw gets their fair chance.

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It hurts your equity, but to say that it hurts your EV is simply wrong. If the backdoor draws don't have correct odds to draw, they are helping you in the FTOP sense by chasing. Which means they are not helping you by correctly folding.

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In addition you don't seem to realize what a powerfull hand AA really is:

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I think I do.

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You are basically saying that your postflop equity goes down so much postflop (in a 8-10 player scenario) that it can't be covered by the additional money you make preflop and that is just not true.

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When you go from eight players to nine, you are not making any additional money preflop. You can think of those showdown sims as representing the preflop round of betting only, with no betting allowed post-flop. You do better against eight random hands than you do against nine.

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Anyway: if we are really only arguing wether 8-10 players are the cut off, then the point is moot. First of all we rarely get in pots like that anyway. Secondly I was mainly arguing against ggbman and Lars 2-3 player scenarios.

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Figuring out whether ten opponents is preferable to eight has no practical value at all. But sometimes puzzles are fun to solve just for their own sake.

[LarsVegas]

I can't understand how some people can put so little emphasis on the important fact that 7 ways, AA will very, very frequently make the second-best, mandatory pay-off hand in a large multiway pot.

The implied odds in a three-way pot are so much better than in a 7-way pot.

Lars

[Barry]

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AA will very, very frequently make the second-best, mandatory pay-off hand in a large multiway pot

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It will sometimes, not very, very frequently. But it will also sometimes make monsters that will be paid off all the way.

You guys must have had a bad childhood or something.

[MaxPower]

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But the important thing is that while your pot equity might be lower against more players, your expected value is larger. The Pokerroom stats should prove this.

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the Pokerroom stats don't show that because they do not show how many opponents called pre-flop. They only show how many opponents were seated at the table.

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You are right. I was reading that wrong. My pokertracker stats do show this, but I haven't played aces aganst 5 or more opponents enough times to estimate my true win rate (and I'm sure I never will).

Nevertheless, I'm right
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[pokerjo22]

Now you're just being deliberately silly.

[helpmeout]

I didnt read much of the fluff inbetween.

I prefer 2-3 players. HU against an aggressive player is great.

What I want is to catch someone with TPTK and have them pay off until showdown.

Having multiple opponents cuts down on your equity because even though the pots are bigger you lose more often.

Not only do you lose more often but you pay off because of the value of your hand. The pay off bet adds up to a lot over time.

Also the mental aspect of losing with a big hand counts for something as well so future hands may lose EV because you took a beat.

On its own it might not cause you to tilt but if you throw in another couple of beats then most players will tilt somewhat.

[Sponger15SB]

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wtf? how is this in the fcuking mid-high forum?

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I was thinking the same thing. Everyone who says anything less than everyone should be banned to just posting in the beginner forum.

[adanthar]

I didn't read this whole thread but it's 86 replies long and has a flame icon next to it so I assume there's actually an argument.

That makes me sad.