Play a Hand With the Masters #2 Turn

[McMelchior]

Hero flat called the flop min-CR, a completely irrelevant card fell on the turn, and villain made a medium size bet.

I say hero calling to flop gave villain absolutely no information about what he's up against.

If villain's on a bluff he's firing the second barrell here, if he has QT or a set (hopefully not 7s) he's milking his hand, and if he has a worse made hand and a draw he's trying to continue showing strengh.

All options are open. The good part of it is that we dodged one of the 8 scare cards, the bad that hero didn't hit his boat and have litte or no additional information.

Left with 1,770 (oops, miscalculation edited) in chips and a pot of 2,600 there's no sense in calling: it's push or fold time.

I said push on the flop, I say push even more here. Villain will have to call with a wide range of hands now, and we still have one shot at our 4-outer should we be behind.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[TomHimself]

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I'm interested to see what Gigabet has to say about this hand that makes it interesting. I push.

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[the shadow]

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Villain could be holding QQ, KJ, AJ, TT? You have to charge him for the opportunity to suck out on you.

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Villian's turn bet looks more like a value bet or semi-bluff than a blocking bet. If villian had just checked the turn, how much would you have bet to charge him for the chance to suck out?

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(Also, in your analysis of calling is better if you're ahead or behind, I think it should be mentioned that you want to push if the villain is also holding AK.)

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Good point.

[Yuv]

I fold.

No, no, wait. I push. If he got JJ or QTs, well, who cares. I'm gigabet and I'm rich.

[Ryendal]

The Villain could simply have his AA preflop, and tried to trap Giga who is supposed to be agressive .. But even this scenario is not so fantastic. HMMMmm I hope more ;-)

Else, very nice job in this forum ...

[Guelph]

The turn changes nothing in my mind. Since I didn't push the re-raise on the flop, I'm pushing here.

He's not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere. What are we waiting for?

I've read through most of the threads here (not all) and have seen most poeple pick a range of hands and finally say we are WAWB. Analyzing the BBs play though what hands do you play this way not know what UTG raised with.

BB has to put Giga on a pretty strong range of hands. One of your standard big pairs, AK, AQ, possibly a hand like ATs, AJs, KQs. He might have the range a little larger but he has to give credit for a good hand.

Now what would I call this raise with from the BB? I would call with any pair figuring that UTG has a big hand and I get paid off on a set. Also I would make the call with two suited cards ten or higher, AKo, AQo, and probably AJo, maybe some mid suited connectors looking to hit a perfect flop.

On the flop I check and the UTG raiser bets half the pot. As the BB this doesn't mean much and can be seen as a standard continuation bet that UTG makes anytime checked to him. On a flop like this I can't rule out him betting with a set as a free card could make a the nut straight so I wouldn't expect a slow play.

So what hands am I min reraising with? Personally I would make this play with very few hands. If I have a very big hand like a set I'm betting more since I have to expect a call when I min raise with t1500 in the pot and I wouldn't want to give off a cheap card to the ace high straight either. I would be happy to get a hand like QQ, TT, AQ, or AT to fold and give me the pot. With QT I also bet more as I want him to get all his chips in right here. If I min raise and he calls a Q or T scares him away and I don't get paid off any more. Also with my big hands I want to get all in here as I'm OOP and a lot of cards could scare me or my opponent off his hand.

A min raise will also get a pair of 9s or less to fold and if UTG was raising with a suited connector just to throw off his opponents he would let go of it now.

I can only see a few hands betting like this. That's AK, AQ, AJ, AT, and KJ. I would feel like there is a good chance I'm leading(AQ and AT not as good but still have QQ and TT beat). I don't want to just call and by min raising I can at least get a feel for what UTG might have. If he pushes I can easily fold my hand as my two pair or TP with gutshot as it is probably no good as he has a better two pair or a set(as BB I don't put UTG on QT). If he just calls I now feel like my two pair hands are good and am starting to feel good about AQ. With AT I am still worried about AQ having me beat. I figure a better hand would have pushed the min raise since the pot is now larger and doesn't want to risk a free card.

When the blank on the turn hits I now bet with my two pair or AQ with the feeling I am in the lead. With AT I figure he could have QQ or TT and hoped to make his gut shot and if he has AQ he may still giving me credit for a better hand and figuring it's now too much to go for his gutshot fold his hand. If I bet out and get raised on the turn I'm letting go of most of these hands as I am certain I'm beat and still have 12BBs to play with. The only hand I would now call a push with is K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] as I now have the flush draw along with small possiblity my two pair is good. As the BB if Giga pushed the turn I would think he risked giving off one card with a big hand to try and induce another bluff on the turn and is now pushing to take away the river.

You might say that the BB could have done this with his min raise. However, with a set or the straight I am now pushing the turn to shut out any draws that UTG might have as I've gotten my added value of t300 and check raising is too dangerous as UTG could easily check behind. My bet of t800 is doing two things:

1) Making a hand like QQ, TT, AQ, AT(small possiblity) pay to try and hit a gutshot.
2) If UTG did slow play and risk one card he will probably push here and I can still get away.

If a Q or T hits on the river as the BB I would have to check and probably make a crying call with two pair. If I have AQ or AT and make my straight I'm pushing in, with the exception of a diamond where I may check and call with the flush out there. If the board pairs and I make a full house then I'm pushing. If the ace pairs I check fold if I don't have the ace. If the king pairs and I don't have it I check and will probably call. If the jack pairs I would check/call maybe push AQ or AT trying to get UTG off of AQ if he still has it since it's a split now if he calls. If the 7 pairs and I have KJ I check fold but push the rest of my hands as AT now splits with AQ but any ace has made a better two pair.

So as Giga sitting UTG with two pair and figuring the BB for these hands could consider just calling. He is drawing to very few outs and will have a tough time getting away from any of the hands he has if another blank hits and may push a worse hand or check call a worse hand.

A push maybe better as it picks up the pot right here from many hands and a worse hand may still make a crying call hoping to be good or be drawing to most likely 4 outs(more if he has the diamond draw with KJ).

I think the min raise was more of a feeler bet than a milking the pot bet. At least that's how I would have played it as the BB.

[locutus2002]

It sure looks like hero is beat; hero calls.

villain has played this like a big hand, and has been slowly building a pot. Villain has never tried to exert FE, or push hero out of the hand.

When hero is behind 75% of the time its against the str8
AA-1 way
KK - 1 way
JJ - 3 way
QT - 16 ways

when hero is ahead most of the time its against a pair w/ str8 draw

2pr - 14 ways
Pr w/ str8 draw - 48 ways
weak ace - 16 ways

I think villain is less likely to bet any of the hands that he is behind because:
he has not tried to win the pot when he has a better chance (earlier with more cards to come)
hero has shown resistance
A bluff/semibluff is unlikely to work given the pot odds
A push is a better bluff
villain has shown restraint in betting, it would be uncharacteristic for him to bet the worst hand.

I think hero is behind, although anything is possible.

Hero cannot lay down top 2 pair:

AJ (top of villain's losing range) may bet - 6 ways. Enough to justify a call
Villain may be trying some donkey move.
Hero has been trapping (with probably the worst hand)

[Exitonly]

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I disagree greatly with most of the panel on this hand. I think this is a case of one of two situations. Either the hero is way ahead, or he is way behind. There are several possible hands that the villainn could have that we would ave soundly beat, AJ, possibly KJ, AT, AQ, JdTd and unlikely KQ JT or QQ. Now, just as likely (if not MORE likely), the villain could be holding AA, KK, JJ, AK, AKs (diamonds would be bad) and an unlikely QT. With how things have played out so far, it is VERY likely that the villain has the better hand here. Another question would be what hands could our villain be putting the hero on here? I would think that he would put our range at something similar. So, unless he is a real donk, I seriously doubt he would be betting 800 on this turn. That bet just asks for the hero to push (as many of you have decided to do). If the villain is holding AA, hero is drawing dead. Against KK, hero has 2 outs; JJ - 4, AKs chop or the villain has 9 outs to draw the nut flush, and the unlikely QT where the hero also has 4 outs. With the reraise on the flop, I don't see the villain (if he is an even reasonably good player) continuing to play any of the hands that the hero can beat. I think that this is clearly a fold situation. Barring further information, I am going to assume that the villain is a good player. I think that it is close, but I am going to give the villain credit for having a strong hand here and let it go. If the villain is a bad enough player to be continuing to play a marginal hand that far against that kind of betting, that I will be able to get my chips back on later hands.

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Journal 10/14/05...

"and lastly, if I ever find myself at a final table with a guy who looks like a giant Gavin Griffin, fire the 2nd barrell 100% of the time."

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Wow, lol, actually still laughing about that... NH sir.

[Exitonly]

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i have read the previous parts but havent posted a response.

for all those that said push i am confused. obviously we dont have a problem with all the money going into the pot but why do it all on the turn? granted, if the villain bets the rest of hero's chips on the river, i will call no matter what card falls. but what if the villain checks the river? i would be happy to check behind. sure having 900 left if i lose sucks but i dont think theres a ton of value in just shoving the turn. im not a frequent MTTer but the Hw/the masters posts are cool and id like to learn more. please tell me why pushing the turn is better if you disagree as id like to know if my thought process is wrong.

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If i didnt think i would get paid off, i definitely wouldn't push, but i think he's pretty pot commited now and should call with anything. And i think the hands that pay me off on the turn, won't pay me off on the river, so i want to push now.