Is Phil Helmuth even THAT good?

[Ed Miller]

He didn't become obscenely rich by being lucky.

I'll believe that you are privy to Phil Hellmuth's bank balance if you can tell me what mine is.

[Smasharoo]

He's good at poker, not so good at managing money. He's said as much on numerous occasions.

[deacsoft]

Poker Accomplishments


1. 1989 World Champion of Poker (World Series of Poker).
2. # 1 with Nine World Championships of Poker (9 World Series of Poker titles-two of them in 2003).
3. First place on the WSOP (World Series of Poker) all time money list with over $3,524,000 in earnings
4. 1995 Hall of Fame Big One Champion
5. 2000 European Champion-Poker EM, the Worlds Biggest Seven-Card Stud event in Vienna at Casinos Austria.
6. #1 with 4 Hall of Fame Poker titles
7. My winning three WSOP titles and one second in 1993; is considered the best feat in the history of poker.
8. Late Night Poker III Champion (LNP is being played on FOX right now. I won it in 2000.
9. Won the Bicycle Clubs Championship event in 1988.
10. Numerous other titles in poker tournaments all over the world.

[ArchAngel71857]

2. # 1 with Nine World Championships of Poker (9 World Series of Poker titles-two of them in 2003).

I had heard Doyle and Chan each had nine bracelets, too.

3. First place on the WSOP (World Series of Poker) all time money list with over $3,524,000 in earnings

not any more. Greg Raymer 1st, Dan Harrington second, Williams?? Ferguson?? 3rd fourth??? Chan and Cloutier weren't too far behind Hellmuth before all this.

7. My winning three WSOP titles and one second in 1993; is considered the best feat in the history of poker.

By who? Phil Hellmuth Sr.?

10. Numerous other titles in poker tournaments all over the world.

I hope it includes some MTT on UB.

-AA

[Aloysius]

Thank you for this list - I think it underscores an important point. Unless you've regularly played with Phil Hellmuth (or any of the other "name" poker celebrities currently on the tour), how can you really say one way or the other if he's good, bad, rich, poor, whatever?

Poker is best judged (as I've learned from these message boards) from long-term results. It's possible that Phil's record may diminish if he does not continue to post similar type results. But if past performance is indicative of anything...

And while the WSOP Championship event will continue to field a large number of Internet entrants... a majority of tourneys will be comprised of the same types of players (pros, semi-pros, serious non-pros) that Phil has been beating for his entire career.

When I read something like "Phil is definitely pretty good, but not as good as Doyle or Phil Ivey or etc..." I just have to wonder what this judgment is based on? Reading Super System? The fact that Doyle Brunson won back to back WSOP titles when the field was at around 100 entrants?

This isn't like baseball, where there are reams of statistics to back up quality assessments. We see probably, at most, .1% of the hands Phil Hellmuth, or any other pro, plays throughout the course of a year (assuming they got on say WPT 2x, and play 8 hours 5 days a week for the entire calendar year). That's not a very good basis for opinion in my estimation.

I think it's fair to note that the hands we actually do get to see (usually in big tourneys with a lot at stake) are somewhat reflective of a player's true abilities, even if it's a tiny % of his overall hands played. But to feel really strongly one way or the other, with so little to base it on, just seems ludicrous to me.

[deacsoft]

I just thought it might be useful to post this list from his website. I hear talk about Mr. Hellmuth and if he's good or not all the time. What doesn't surprise me is that 99% of the people talking about it (not including most 2+2ers) don't know anything about whoever it is they're talking about. They have no background information about any players accomplishments. It makes them all look like idiots when they just puke up misinformation they overheard from someone else's conversation or took from Vince Van Patten or something.

I figure this way before any more of us comment on how much he sucks because he's a cry baby we can all look at his lengthly list of accomplishments and give credit where it is due. Phil Hellmuth, Jr is one of the best poker players over the las 15 or so years. Period.

[deacsoft]

Very adult post, by the way. I wish we had more of those on 2+2. It's clear that you can set aside personal feelings and look to the facts for the correct answer. Nice to see it and keep it up. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jumpthru]

[ QUOTE ]
We see probably, at most, .1% of the hands Phil Hellmuth, or any other pro, plays throughout the course of a year

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the amount of poker these guys play, more like .000001%...

[West]

I think I got the right quote with the wrong hand. I know that Hellmuth folded pocket queens to Toto on a different hand in a scenario like I described.

[daryn]

Mass. ave ed? are you in boston?