Good hand for newer players to examine

[oneeye13]

you can't push JJ, but you can push a T w/ J kicker? i don't follow this.

[banditbdl]

You would in fact be terribly, horribly wrong to fold an overpair like JJ, when a ten high flop is raised by a loose aggressive player like yourself who is raising the flop after calling 3 cold preflop. This hand is perfect evidence of way folding JJ here is an absolutely horrendous play as this player won himself I nice hefty pot by calling it down.

P.S. I actually am somewhat inclined to believe the button may have actually folded. He was trying too hard to make a "great" play and wanted to impress his buddies sitting next to him by showing them what a strong hand he was folding. As for the seat one player, KK is highly unlikely, he likely had Kx. If two players folded KK and AA in a nine-way cap-flop it would have to be the absolute most dead money table ever known to man.

[Mike]

Warning: DO NOT TRY THIS IN YOUR GAME - this may only work for illogical players.

First, you have to think about what you want to do.

Put me in a game with say, Ulysses, Vehn, Majorkong, and a few more like them and it's pretty much abc poker for everyone unless the stakes are such that losing a hand is painful. They are tough players and they won't be fooled or pushed around. Plus they have very deep pockets. Sure, I will sneak some bets off of them from pure position play, but they will do the same to me, so there is no edge there. It would be primarily a house wins the most chips game. Not a lot of sense playing that game. Trying to make something happen would be a very bad idea financially.

Put me in a game with the right players, and there are now many more opportunities for some manipulative play.

Here is what you do:

1. About an hour before you are going to play take some vitamin B complex pills with a glass of milk. No caffeine!

2. After playing a bit, and you know your players and you have worked up the nerve, go to the bathroom and puke. You want to get your puking done in the bathroom because if you do it at the table, it ruins the game. Going to the bathroom when you are done puking doesn't hurt either.

2. Come back to the table, strap on your seatbelt, get a glass of water, and wait for the right hand with all your players doing the right things, off you go.

3. If you planned well, and did everything right, the dealer will push you a pot you know you don't deserve. The urge to laugh out loud and tell them what you just did will be very strong. Don't do it.

You may shake a little, but they will think it is a tell from the win you just made.

4. When they ask what you had, look at them and say: "nothing" with a straight face of course. When they ask, "Did you have XX?", say yes. Never show your cards.

Remember, if you choose wrong, you will look really stupid, and you will have a lot less money than you did before. Don't blame me if you try it and bomb. You have been warned.

[GuyOnTilt]

You have things completely mixed up. If this is your plan of attack for beating games with weak players, you're crazy. Also, a game with 2+2 elite would definitely NOT consist of main ABC poker, I guarantee it. ABC poker should be used at tables with weak-playing fish. Putting moves on players should be reserved for opponents who won't be beat by ABC play.

I've read all of your rebuttals and excuses and justifications for your play on this hand and why you think it'll win you money in the longrun, blah, blah, and I still think you're absolutely out of your mind.

[Mike]

Ignoring everything you may have read in this thread before you posted, go back to my very first post and read it with the understanding that every player in the hand played their hand wrong.

You should be able to figure out most if not all the mistakes made. That was the intent of the post. If the errors are not clear, ask anyone who responded, I am sure they will gladly help you with any questions you might have.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't be to wrong to fold JJ in a multiway pot. You will occasionally win, but you are not much better off than I was with JTo when it comes to winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't be serious. JJ will flop a set once every 8.5 flops. You'd be crazy to fold that hand in a family pot. JTo, however, will not flop a hand as strong as a set once every 8.5 flops. The fact that you see JTo as an equal hand to JJ in a capped family pot would be humorous, except for the fact that you consider yourself a winning poker player.

I feel very badly that beginning players come here for advice and may emulate your play of this hand. Please do not post such idiocy as solid poker.

[Mike]

Now when did I say it was my plan of attack? Do you really think I get dealt AA and throw it away waiting for things to be right to make a move to win a pot? Doing that certainly would be mixed up.

What then in your opinion would a game with 2+2 elite consist of? Certainly not what I have been generally talking about in this thread? How could that be, these are the forum's very best players? They wouldn't use deception and deceipt would they?

....or would they?

[GuyOnTilt]

There would definitely be much deception and deceit going on. There just wouldn't be throwing away 5 hours' work worth of chips on a JTo bluff into 9 opponents, beginning your bluff attempt by calling 3 cold preflop. That's stupidity.

[Mike]

Ahhh, I believe I said that at the beginning of the post you just responded to?

The paragraph with 'ABC poker' in it.

[GuyOnTilt]

I meant the play in general. No winning poker player would ever make it unless they were on mega-tilt. Regardless of the circumstances, JTo would not be played in a capped pot against a full table. The fact that you're still defending your involvement in the hand is absurd.