Why do people love israel so much??

[lehighguy]

As is my understanding, Arabs that live in Isreal proper and are actual citizens don't have it too bad. I think they even have representatives in government (or used to). If not for the terrorist bombings they could probably lead normal lives.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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As is my understanding, Arabs that live in Isreal proper and are actual citizens don't have it too bad. I think they even have representatives in government (or used to). If not for the terrorist bombings they could probably lead normal lives.

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Yes, they are treated quite well. The displacement and occupation though means that there are millions of Palestinians living in "de facto Israel" who are discriminated.

[BluffTHIS!]

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The displacement and occupation though means that there are millions of Palestinians living in "de facto Israel" who are discriminated.

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So why don't those Palestinians go back to the Palestinian majority state where they would be welcomed? You know, the state called Jordan. And why don't those rich oil sheiks spend enough of their billions to make their lives better?

[BCPVP]

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Israel is an illegal state that really has no right to exist.

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I ask again. Why is Israel an illegal state with no right to exist while America is not? What makes a state "legal"?

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Third time, weatherman...

[MMMMMM]

No, Arnfinn, you are dodging the point.

Israel allows Arabs to become citizens and grants them legal status with equal rights and religious freedom. Many Arab states DO NOT allow Jews to become citizens, and DO NOT grant them legal status with equal rights, and DO NOT allow them religious freedom. So you are talking nonsense.

[MMMMMM]

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So, WHICH IS MORE DESPICABLE? And which should you object to more strenously?

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We should object to neither.

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I disagree.

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We should be truly neutral and let them sort themselves out for the most part - a token commitment to blue helmets I can live with that. Like we do in Kashmir, or in Darfur, or ...

Supporting Israel because they are less despicable is idiotic, specially when we know the support is costing us dearly.

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I think supporting democracy anywhere in the world is a worthy endeavor, and especially so in the Middle East where it is so sorely needed.

[ACPlayer]

We should support a state which is in our best interest and not just because it is a democracy. You and I have agreed that the state of Israel shows disdain if not contempt for some of the things we ask for, we have agreed that they implement some despicable policies towards the Palestinians in the occupied territories, that they implement a creeping land grab via the settlements.

So, we should move squarely into the neutral camp in the Middle East. We should do it explicitly and with clear actions to back up the words. We lose nothing by doing so, we gain a lot.

[MMMMMM]

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We should support a state which is in our best interest and not just because it is a democracy. You and I have agreed that the state of Israel shows disdain if not contempt for some of the things we ask for, we have agreed that they implement some despicable policies towards the Palestinians in the occupied territories, that they implement a creeping land grab via the settlements.

So, we should move squarely into the neutral camp in the Middle East. We should do it explicitly and with clear actions to back up the words. We lose nothing by doing so, we gain a lot.


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I disagree. Democracies (versus the alternatives) ARE in our best interests.

I think we should take sides more strongly, and we should tell Israel it is fine to take the gloves off and totally kick the crap out of any terrorists who fire rockets into Gaza.

Respond to terror attacks by hitting the terrorist groups near Israel wih utterly overwhelming force. Destroy the infrastructure associated with the launching area of attacks, and the headquarters and training camps of the group responsible, and be sure to finish off with a Daisy Cutter or two to be sure no militants escape.

Then, if the Palestinians want peace, truly help them build a state of their own. But if they keep firing rockets and such, wipe out the source of each attack.

That would soon end the nearly all of the violence, believe it or not. If the terrorists don't have headquarters and their leaders are dead, they will quit. The reason they "vow revenge" when Israel launches counterstrikes is because Israel is playing only tit-for-tat. The terrorist groups are never getting truly hammered. They've only been getting chipped away at, and it's good for their PR.

The reason they keep attacking, is because it is working. The reason Arafat turned to terrorism is because he found it worked. He showed up at the U.N. wearing a gun and his military garb. Israeli athletes were murdered at the Olympics. Arafat got more recognition and sympathy for the Palestinians via militancy, than far more oppressed groups around the world obtained through silent protests.

Well, terrorism does not have to work if we don't let it. If concessions to terror are never given, the reward/pain ratio changes dramatically--the more so if terrorists are killed in response, and all their known infrastructure blown up.

It is time to stamp out the regional terrorist groups. Only if the Palestinian militants suffer utter defeat and total humiliation will there be a chance at peace. Their means and spirit must be broken before they will accept co-existence with Israel, before they will stop targeting children's birthday parties and schoolbuses and hospitals for murder.

Fanatics care for nothing but victory or total defeat. It is up to Israel and the USA to give them that defeat.

Whenever Israel has responded with true strength, terror attacks have dropped off. Terror attacks dropped off wherever the fence was built. Terror attacks dropped off after Sheikh Yassin was killed, despite the militants' vows to create a greater bloodbath. Why? Because they were getting hit and hurt, and found it hard to operate under such pressure.

It's time to stop negotiating with terrorists. It's time to start pro-actively squashing them after every attack. If it is done forcefully enough they won't be retaliating much, because they will mostly just be dead. They aren't used to getting flattened, because Israel has always exercised great restraint at our behest and due to world opinion.

I suggest it is time for a new method of dealing with terrorists: zero negotiation, and a response of totally overwhelming force directed at the source of any attack. A 100% applied consistency in this approach will soon stamp out nearly all of the terrorism in the region. And then the Palestinians can have a state, as Bush has laid out in the RoadMap--once they are no longer attacking. But the fanatical members of terrorist groups will never stop attacking until they are dead or rendered totally powerless.

The die has long been cast, but few people want to face the reality of the situation. The reality is that no matter what any moderate Palestinians might want, or what Abbas might suggest, the fanatics will keep attacking until they meet with either success or utter defeat. So which will it be? Tbe answer will depend upon the astuteness and the will of Israel and the USA, because Abbas cannot cointrol the militants fanatics, and the militant fanatics will never accept the existence of Israel but will always attack her. And end and moving-forward is possible only if the militant fanatics are utterly defeated.

In the absence of a definitive answer resolutely acted upon by Israel and the USA, the bloody stalemate wil continue, much to the long-term detriment of all parties involved.

[ACPlayer]

Democracy can be one factor.

The rest of your post is simply muslim hating at its best. You are advocating a strategy which is a loser, has been shown to be a loser and a strategy that continues to make us the target of terrorists for no value.

[BluffTHIS!]

There is nothing inherently anti-moslem in MMMM's posts. If moslems are disliked it is because of their actions where mobs follow ignorant uneducated mullahs who inflame them and blame all their own faults on Israel. And we have a right to choose who our friends in the international coummunity are. To advocate appeasement of terrorists and their backers is the same as advocating not aggressively pursuing criminal gangs because they might retaliate against law enforcement and witnesses.

Would you tell your son not to be friends with someone just because the neighborhood bully told him not to? Or would you tell him to stand up for himself and his friend?