total unfluffableness

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
I recall a similar post/hand discussion along these same lines sometime ago. Someone called a bet when they knew they were beat (by a full house, I think). All the odds etc were spilled out and only a few people (including Mr. Angelo) said a fold was the correct play. Tommy ended up explaining it all by tossing rocks into the ocean, I believe. But perhaps my memory is a bit off. I entered in to simply state that there are times when you can be 100% certain and that too may ‘crying calls’ are made by players. IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the subject of "Folding" deserves a lot more attention and in my opinion is one of the least focussed and developed areas in the game of poker. As SKP said, if any other poster had folded on that river, we would have mauled over him. But because it's Tommy who does, then it seems validated. So obviously this validation has merit and somehow can be developed into literature .... hopefully [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
they have all crowed about you to me when I met up with them; and it's easy for me to see why even though we have never met.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Sid,

When I first met Tommy in Vegas about 3 years ago, it was in a 5/10 PL game. He held KK UTG, raised the $35 of course. Got called 3 way. Long story short, Board comes something like 3-10-7-K-2 in that order rainbow.

Some guy flops a set of 3s, cracked on the turn by Tommy's bigger set. Tommy doesn't even start racking the chips and cash in front before he jumps to some other table like a little school kid telling whoever it was that he just sucked out bigtime and won a huge pot. Then he comes back to the table all calm and cool like business as usual. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Tommy Angelo]

"Mike l. is calling you on this one, but I like it."

Mike is right. I should have played mum poker as usual. There were other ways to let the dealer breath easy. Maybe I had an arc-second or two of tilt going on for just a nanosecond.

"Is there ever a time, at least subconsciously, that you do something just because it might make an interesting post?"

Not locally, that's for sure. And FWIW, I play against approximately zero 2+2ers approximately all the time.

"does this subconcious energy ...cause other players at the table to follow your tacit instructions?"

I have no idea what you are talking about but the answer is yes.

"And do you promise to use this power wisely "

I promise to use my power for my own good, which by default includes the common good, and the other way around.

"If you are a 100% you are beat on the river, and thus always fold, how can you confirm same?"

Obviously I can't you silly creature. So obviously I have no interest in confirmation. And besides, because of this thread, I am now forced to say "99.9999% sure" or however many decimals it takes to make 40-1 not a good price, or else we'll go through it all again and Andy will have to find another cool quote.

"If you were told by a truthful omniscient God that you had exactly the "opitimal odds", meaning, yes, it wouldn't matter whether you called or folded in the here and now, What would be best for the meta game?"

That is a nonsense question. How can the optimal odds, as you defined them, not include the meta game?

God says, here, it's your turn, and it doesn't matter if you call or fold. I would take him on face value and assume that there was no parameter, anywhere, no matter how many layers deep, that I could turn to, that would guide me toward thinking one choice was better than the other. In the purest and rawest way that it is possible for me to not care which choice I made, I wouldn't care, because God told me not to.

And here you come at the end and say: Wait! God, as it turns out, left out the metagame considerations! Now what do you do?

Well, I guess I would have to know what all the metagame considerations are, wouldn't I? Maybe God could tell me.


Tommy

[felson]

Michael is right re: my Badger link. There's no content related to this thread except to show skp that Badger is still writing. Sorry I wasn't more specific, Rick.

[TwoNiner]

Tommy- Would you have bullet checked if this same player checked to you on the river? Of course you wouldn't have called a checkraise, but I was just wandering if you could have saved that same bet on the river if the guy hadn't sprung to life. All the other clues you mention are there for him to have gotten there for his flush,and going for a checkraise seems like a reasonable strategy for your opponent.

[Rick Nebiolo]

When he was posting Badger enjoyed busting my chops so I was looking forward to more of the same. Too bad [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[Tommy Angelo]

"going for a checkraise seems like a reasonable strategy for your opponent."

Folding before the flop for two-cold with 9-5 would have been reasonable too. What seems reasonable to you or I is not relevant in reading this opponent.

Tommy

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the subject of "Folding" deserves a lot more attention and in my opinion is one of the least focussed [sic] and developed areas in the game of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since about 90% of poker is folding this statement becomes even more important, IMO. I may start a poker book, ‘ Zeno's Poker Pamphlet on the Art of Folding’. This is now a registered trademark so no one better steal it. Andy Fox will write the prologue, Tommy Angelo the introduction, and Mr. Ferret the Forward. If I can pull it off, the book will be completely devoid of any useful poker advice but have a mountain of quotes gleaned from literature from the classical to the modern era, in other words - from Lao Tzu to George Santayana.


[ QUOTE ]
As SKP said, if any other poster had folded on that river, we would have mauled over him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most, but Not I.


[ QUOTE ]
So obviously this validation has merit and somehow can be developed into literature

[/ QUOTE ]

There is much writing about poker, however; there is very little literature. Tommy is the exception and the bright star in the dim void of space in this regard.


Please note that I have had some good news today and consumed more than just a few beers and am currently enjoying a cigar while composing the above.

Regards,

Zeno

[Rick Nebiolo]

Zeno,

I've had a few myself and was on some other forum where I read all about your day and am happy for you to see everything is working out. I'm looking forward to a cigar myself, (just got in an order of a JR Cigar special (60 decent Montecruz Negra Cubana six inch by fifty ring gauge Nicaraguans for about 70 bucks. Good deal!).

In this thread I guess my concern/point is that you have to be a great reader to make this laydown. Just using pure logic a default opponent can be betting a worse hand quite often.

But Tommy is a great hand/people reader. I'm not and most of the rest of us are not (yet).

Work on becoming a great hand reader, but in the meantime call the big pots with a decent hand for one bet when there is some doubt.

Otherwise, be like Tommy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

~ Rick

[Zeno]

Rick,

Thanks for the kind words and great post.

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise, be like Tommy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah - much easier said than done. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-Zeno