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#72
10-13-2005, 01:02 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
I am opposed to standardized rules. A rule that makes perfect sence in LA can be horrible in Tunica. [/ QUOTE ] It sort of depends on the what is covered by the "rules". Generally, what constitutes a bet/raise or which hand wins at the showdown (e.g. is an unfairly or mistakenly mucked yet discernible hand retrievable when all action is complete?) is a more important candidate for standardization than rules that are essentially policy (e.g., why should rules regarding seating/must-moves, posting blinds be standardized?). This is especially true within regions. That said, even when you standardize the most important rules there is a tendency for standardization to stiffle innovation. [ QUOTE ] An example of the sor tof rule is the "f-word penalty" in touranments. In LA this rule is necessary. In tunica, where they do not have widespread problems of abuse, it makes sence rather than having a rule that the penalty is automatic it makes sence to allow the touranment staff to make a decision on whether or not to issue the penalty. [/ QUOTE ] Bad example regarding the F-word penalty [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Although this old timers gentle ears cringe when I hear this word used as a common adjective, I'm not a fan of the rule in tournaments (Paul Phillips live journal has some excellent thoughts on this). [ QUOTE ] As far as what should or shouldn't be a string bet in NL, I am not a fan of string bet rules. I have never seen a string bet called in any game to prevent angle shooting (I know if they were allowed the angle shooters would start making them). Normally when a string bet is called it serves to keep exactly the sort of player you want in your room playing to become upset because they wanted to raise and now they are telling him he can't. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. Perhaps there a way to write a better rule that doesn't favor the nits or table captains, also controls angle shooting, all while allowing the rec players to have fun? [ QUOTE ] I payed my way through college playing poker. I remember a story one of the local players told, at the time I had no idea what happened, but I now have a perfect understanding of what happened. He had jsut gotten back from a trip to Vegas. People asked him how it was if he played poker etc. He said he played poker for a little bit, but that he quit because they cheated him. He said he was playing and had been losing. He said when he finally had the best hand the dealer wouldn't let him raise becasue he was in a pot with a local. It is pretty clear now that what happened is he attempted a string raise and was not allowed. But this is a player that not only quit the game, he came back to Ohio and talked about how they cheat in Vegas. With the TV exposure it is easier than ever to seat palyers in games, but I am guessing there is still a fear of being cheated. I left Vegas in 2001, but I can remember many players coming to the rail watching for a long time, but figuring those 7 guys at the 1-5 stud table were probably all pro waiting to play someoen taht would sit in the 8th chair, so any rule that leaves a new player feeling cheated is a bad rule. [/ QUOTE ] Great point and story. [ QUOTE ] If a change were to be made in the rules (I am opposed to a change at this time) I woudl like to see the limit raising rules look more like the NL raising rules. Is it too much to ask that players just wait until the player in front of them has finished betting? [/ QUOTE ] I've told my GF under penalty of I don't know what (withholding sex? - no that wouldn't work) not to act until the player to her right not only has released his chips but now has his hands back in his lap, hopefully not scratching his you know what. That hasn't kept her from making major mistakes. Like other mostly recreational players, she often just gets excited and acts too quickly. [ QUOTE ] As far as angle shooters thriving with NL bets being made in a continuous motion instead of a single motion, this is a management decision. Angle shooters can only thrive if you allow them to play. If the floor staff is being called to the table because of one player's bad behavior is it better to change the rules and make the game less enjoyable for all or to tell the angle shooter he needs to go cash out? [/ QUOTE ] As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it seems the best rules would keep the game enjoyable, curtail angles, while relieving the burden on the floor staff to make judgment calls unless absolutely necessary. ~ Rick 
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#73
10-13-2005, 01:04 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
As usual, Randy is consistently on the mark with his decisions and reasoning throughout this thread. [/ QUOTE ] What about me?!?!? ~ Rick [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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#74
10-13-2005, 01:15 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
It is a deeper problem than that. I have seen many dealers (not always new, but ussualy not wiht a lot of experience) say "you can't do that, that is a string bet." If they had any clue what a string bet is they wouldnt' have done it. [/ QUOTE ] In LA it isn't a dealer's job to "call" string bets, rather if one is called he then describes what actually happens. I'm not sure what's happening elsewhere. [ QUOTE ] The rules are currently no string bets allowed, but there is no real rational reason for not allowing string bets. [/ QUOTE ] Not sure about this. [ QUOTE ] Any rule that serves to transfer money form teh inexperienced to the experienced is a bad rule. [/ QUOTE ] Generally agree up to a point. [ QUOTE ] If I had to pick a rule to change the limit strong bet rule would be right behind IWTSTH. Calling string bets on the hotel guests does nothing to protect the integrity of the games, it only adds to poker's sleazy image that many people have worked to change. [/ QUOTE ] Agree regarding IWTSTH as discussed in other threads. And I hate to see hotel guests being taken advantage of. OTOH, angle shooters would take advantage of others without the rule. Perhaps their is a better way to write and impement the rule. ~ Rick
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#75
10-13-2005, 01:19 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] As far as angle shooters thriving with NL bets being made in a continuous motion instead of a single motion, this is a management decision. Angle shooters can only thrive if you allow them to play. [/ QUOTE ] Angle shooting isn't the only issue here. As a dealer I prefer not to have to be the one to make a decision about whether a player stopped or was still in motion. The single motion rule makes my job easier, and I really don't believe that there is any negative impact from the rule. [/ QUOTE ] There are a lot of chips to be bet sometimes in NL where it is very difficult to get them all out at once. [/ QUOTE ] This is why they should just say how much they are going to bet. None of this TV bs of the dramatization in betting helps quite a bit. Just say it, and the move it would clear up a lot of confusion as to when the player is finished with his betting. [/ QUOTE ] These are some of the reasons why I believe either a CLEAR verbal decleration OR pushing in all chips at once is probably the best way to go. ~ Rick
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#76
10-13-2005, 01:23 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] As usual, Randy is consistently on the mark with his decisions and reasoning throughout this thread. [/ QUOTE ] What about me?!?!? ~ Rick [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I was considering you to be more of an impartial presenter of the facts in this thread.
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#77
10-13-2005, 01:24 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
You have never had a hotel guest playing in a casino for the first time become angry when they finally catch a hand getting called for a strong raise? Maybe in today's market the floor staff is too busy to actually get these players off the rail and into a game. [/ QUOTE ] When I went to Las Vegas a lot from about 1985 to 1995 my observation was that the Las Vegas poker regulars seemed to have a special mission to make the tourists feel as uncomfortable as possible. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ~ Rick
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#78
10-13-2005, 01:32 AM
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Re: NLH Decision – “more angles than a protractor!”
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but what if Player A held the nuts? Upon hearing player B say Call, Player A could have continued betting all-in by verbally declaring all-in? Player B's rationale would have then allowed him to fold because his "out of turn" call is not binding. This scenario clearly tells me that the floor's ruling was correct. [/ QUOTE ] Player A would have only been able to continue betting what he held in his hand (about $100). If Player B then tried to fold, it probably would have been allowed because of the non binding clause. But declaring "call" out of turn and then changing it to "raise" out of turn sort of hit a different note. ~ Rick
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#79
10-13-2005, 01:35 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] As usual, Randy is consistently on the mark with his decisions and reasoning throughout this thread. [/ QUOTE ] What about me?!?!? ~ Rick [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I was considering you to be more of an impartial presenter of the facts in this thread. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks. Had I been completely "dissed", I would have suffered sufficient anxiety to make it easy to never get out of bed tomorrow. ~ Rick
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#80
10-13-2005, 01:38 AM
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Re: betting lines and procedures, rules
[ QUOTE ]
Edit to add: When you see an inexperienced player cutting out chips like this tell them to stop and tell you what they want to do. [/ QUOTE ] This is something i do as a dealer all the time. I do it for clarity and to speed up the game.
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