Mass defection from the AFL-CIO

[FishHooks]

Target is doing ok but isn't close to wal Mart, I have 1 target and about 4 wal-marts in a 20 mile radius and the parking lots in wal-mart are always filled, target, not so much. Go Wally world

[FishHooks]

[ QUOTE ]
There are lots of cheap places to buy things online if you look around a bit;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very good quote. Online prices are always much lower, does anyone wonder why? Because paying people does up the cost of products by a lot. Look at amazon an online compaym, they offer lower prices than almost anyone, take books for example they sell $29 books for $19. Now they can do this because they dont have much labor costs, so for those of you that say labor costs dont raise prices your wrong. What happens when they raise prices the company suffers because you can always go online to buy things cheeper,which is where i buy most of my stuff.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a very good quote. Online prices are always much lower, does anyone wonder why? Because paying people does up the cost of products by a lot. Look at amazon an online compaym, they offer lower prices than almost anyone, take books for example they sell $29 books for $19. Now they can do this because they dont have much labor costs, so for those of you that say labor costs dont raise prices your wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Labor does increase the cost of goods but, in your example (Amazon) I think it's the savings on retail real estate expenses that allow them to sell cheap.

[FishHooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a very good quote. Online prices are always much lower, does anyone wonder why? Because paying people does up the cost of products by a lot. Look at amazon an online compaym, they offer lower prices than almost anyone, take books for example they sell $29 books for $19. Now they can do this because they dont have much labor costs, so for those of you that say labor costs dont raise prices your wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Labor does increase the cost of goods but, in your example (Amazon) I think it's the savings on retail real estate expenses that allow them to sell cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but I thing your wrong here. Lets say a big book store like barnes and nobel averages about 9 employees at any given time. and their open from 9 am-10pm, and each employee makes about $9/hr (some make less some make more), seems pretty just to me. The formula would be 9*9*13(hours) thats $1053 in labor a day, times that by 30 for days in a month and thats $31,590 a month just in labor costs, I guranatee you they dont spend nearly that on their real estate a month.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

[ QUOTE ]
Hamish, which union are you with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't say, it gets too specific, I'm on a poker site and I can't take a chance, no matter how slim, that my loyal party comrades might find out, hehe. I work for a skilled trade union, say like the plumbers or electricians (but not them). In the past, especially organizing, I have worked for more "general" unions like SEIU.

Because the local is small, I get to do everything myself instead of being stuck doing one thing in a large local. So, I do all the grievances and negotiations, etc. And, since it is a skilled trade union it means that I deal with the big companies, albeit at a smaller level, because, as you know, the skilled trade guys want to have their own small union and not be lumped in with the big production union at a manufacturing plant or the big administrative union at non-manufacturing or public plants. This also means that I have had dealings with a lot of the other big "general" unions for better or worse.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
The formula would be 9*9*13(hours) thats $1053 in labor a day, times that by 30 for days in a month and thats $31,590 a month just in labor costs, I guranatee you they dont spend nearly that on their real estate a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

It’s actually more than that because of benefits and matching Social Security tax but…..

The average B&N or Borders is about 25,000 square feet (I checked with a friend who is a mall agent). In the DC area mall and upscale strip mall space is about $30 - $40 per square foot per year. That’s $62,500 per month not counting the common area payment and utilities.

[FishHooks]

[ QUOTE ]
It’s actually more than that because of benefits and matching Social Security tax but…..

[/ QUOTE ] Yea I agree, thats true, but was just doing a simple formual, i dont know how I could figure all that stuff out.

The average B&N or Borders is about 25,000 square feet (I checked with a friend who is a mall agent). In the DC area mall and upscale strip mall space is about $30 - $40 per square foot per year. That’s $62,500 per month not counting the common area payment and utilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well thats DC, in the northwest wages are generally higher because the cost of living is higher and I have no idea how much the average B and N worker gets paid up there.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
in the northwest wages are generally higher because the cost of living is higher and I have no idea how much the average B and N worker gets paid up there.


[/ QUOTE ]

??? it was your example; did you just pull $9/hour out of your a$$?

Still, my point was that rent, common area fees and utilities are the biggest non-inventory expense for book stores.

If I’m Amazon and I don’t have 500 retail outlets with the associated real estate and labor costs, I can easily under sell B&N.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

Listen, I'm a partisan, not a zealot. I've already indicated many of the problems that I believe are inherent in the industrial relations system. But, I do believe I am doing one of the few jobs, outside your doctor, divorce lawyer, and mattress salesman, that at the end of the day I can say I have at least tried to help my fellow man. So, here we go again, I love it.....
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, because he is a helpless sod. God forbid you should encourage the working man to make something of himself and his dreams. Better he should hope for a .50 raise every 3 years thanks to a union deal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Security is what we are talking about here. You are much better off knowing, by looking in your collective agreement, that 6 months from now you will receive a .50c raise. Now you can plan on buying that new colour TV you wanted. Security, a living wage, and freedom from fear come before the pursuit of one's dreams, wouldn't you agree?
[ QUOTE ]
Good thing YOU are there to help him, because obviously God isn't doing his fair share, in your opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are right. It is good that I am here to help him if he chooses. If you are against unions that is one thing but this seems to indicate that you don't think that any social agencies should exist at all. God ain't helping the people who need to use these agencies either. Yet without them I think we'd be talking about mass revolution.
[ QUOTE ]
Dictionary.com Commodity ...blahblah

[/ QUOTE ]
What are you going on about? If you truly believe that people are no different than any other tradable item then, although I'm not qualified to diagnose, you sound like a sociopath. I'm sure that what you must mean is that there is no difference between capital and labour in corporate decision making and success. I can live with that opinion even though, obviously, it is wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to break it to you buddy, but laborers do not get wealthy. Owners do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? You sure? What have I been talking about this whole time? Perhaps I mispoke when I said "wealth-building" in reference to employees. As I mentioned above, security and a living wage is the issue. So, are you denying an employee's ability or option (i won't say "right") to provide themselves with those things?
[ QUOTE ]
If they CHOOSE not to do better, then the company that employs them shouldn't be penalized by leeches who just suck more money out of the company than necessary. (Unions)

[/ QUOTE ]
This bootlicking nonsense reminds of many arguments against unionism I hear. "No, we don't want a union, they have one across the street, they make more money than us but they are lazy and don't do any work. We are more friendly with management here." You are doing more work for less money at the same job and you think the union guy is the sucker?!? You dumptruck, no wonder management is friendly with you, they should be kissing your ass every day for putting their kids in private schools. The union is the leech? If the company weren't the real bloodsuckers then the union wouldn't be there. Why are you so interested in making the company money but not yourself?

Finally, you really think that people working in those dreary factories are a choice or two away from a dream life? And in the meantime tough luck? Sad.
[ QUOTE ]
Even by your own admission, the union needs to make companies pay for its own dues. This is not labor that the company has purchased. It is a FINE. Ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate to break it to you, brother, but union dues are the employees money, not the employers. At least say it is a fine on the employees. This is a common misconception because of dues checkoff. This means that the dues are deducted and forwarded to the union from the company but it is the employees money.

You have insurance on your car, house, and all the crap in the house, yet unions are just an insurance policy on the job that provides all that other stuff. Even better than that, you pay the insurance premium (the dues), and you actually CONTROL the insurance company. Greater wages, benefits, security, say in the workplace, health and safety checks, etc. for a tax-deductable monthly pittance sounds like positive expected value to me especially since, if the union isn't doing its job, you can much more easily turf them out than bring them in.

In solidarity, Hamish.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

It is impossible to disagree with you. Like I said before I sympathize with this situation and I see it occasionally, although probably not to this degree. Unfortunately, it is probably in a lot of people's nature to take advantage of this kind of thing. I'd have to say they are also taking advantage of management weakness as well though. All I can say is that I have personally never seen a union executive that does not try to discourage this kind of behaviour or actively combat it. It is in their own best interest. They know decertification is the end result and it is all over. But, as on the corporate side, there are unions and union locals that lack foresight and act suicidally.