Matusow hand analysis @ Final Table - 2nd hand

[Vincent Lepore]

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If you guess wrong and the guy is getting aggressive with QQ or AK or something, it is an absolute tragedy to lay down KK.

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To make a laydown of K,K is very difficult. You need a very good reason(s). Playing for a`6.5M prize, there is a raise and reraise from early position players, you have to act before the original raiser, losing the hand will have a dramatatic effect on you moving up are a few reasons. Whether they are good enough reasons is where I differ with most if not all others in this discussion.


Vince

[Smoothcall]

Wow, that was a horribly played hand by Andrew Black! How could someone make such a horrible play like that. He is trying to sell a monster hand after just calling a raise and a call. C'mon gimme a break. If Mattusow just raised and Black was the first caller maybe. But the 2nd caller? Noway would anybody just call with a monster hand after the raise and the call in front of them. That was plain silly.

Howard i think this is a bad example to use to describe the style of play of Lazar. In fact you may only be helping vince's argument because in the example you use lazar only calls mattusow's raise. If he was so aggressive why is he just calling a raise here? It means that its more likely he has a strong hand when reraising as he woulda called if not a great hand.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Treesong (forgot your IRL name), your continued arguing is pointless, you do know this, right?

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In fact any arguement from you would be pointless. You don't have a clue. Thank you for just continuing your silly pointless posting. For a moment I thought I had misread you.

Vince

[ClaytonN]

Hi Vince, or Vincent. You've been on my ignore list since that username was created, and a good while longer before you made this name. I just thought I would establish this so I wouldn't see so many

*** You are ignoring this user ***

addressed to me from yourself. Thanks.

[Smoothcall]

I mean i know you showed that example to show the agressivness of the table. But you missed the fact that through all that agressiveness lazar was anything but agressive in this example.

[Howard Treesong]

[ QUOTE ]
Howard i think this is a bad example to use to describe the style of play of Lazar. In fact you may only be helping vince's argument because in the example you use lazar only calls mattusow's raise. If he was so aggressive why is he just calling a raise here? It means that its more likely he has a strong hand when reraising as he woulda called if not a great hand.

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I was done with the thread until you weighed in, and am responding only because I don't understand your point -- no insult intended. You seem to suggest that Lazar didn't reraise. But he did: Dannenman open-raised, Lazar reraised, Matusow stacked off, and Lazar (on a smaller stack), called Matusow down.

This reraise doesn't mean AA, or close to it. Certainly, when Lazar CALLS behind Matusow, he has a monster -- but Mike can't know that when he stacks. I agree, certainly, that the range of CALLING hands behind Matusow's raise is very small.

But Matusow rightly thinks he has FE here.

I'm no NLH genius. But I'd play it just the same way Mike did. As for the Andrew Black hand, I wasn't commenting on the quality of the play; rather, I was using it to demonstrate the point that at that table, with those players, a reraise didn't screw down hand ranges very tightly. And you may well be right that it's a bad play; it still supports my point.

[Smoothcall]

When i said it was a bad example i was referring to the andrew black hand(the one where hew moves in and other guy has jj) hand where lazar was in that specific pot. You used that hand as an example to show the craziness and raise and reraisers, but what you failed to realize was lazar was in the hand just calling a raise. Which only strengthens vince's argument not hurt it. Because it shows lazar not raising but calling. It showing him not be aggressive with raises. I'm not saying he wasn't aggressive(i don't know) but that you picked a poor example hand to support your argument is all. Maybe if you found one where lazar was reraising an early raise with a mrginal hand would have been better than one where he just calls an early raise. And i'm not saying i agree with vince here. Just that you were hurting your cause by showing that example when you were trying to help you cause. I think he would raise with more hands than AA as well. And Mike's play is fine.

[Vincent Lepore]

Hey ClaytonN(utcase) thanks for telling me you are ignoring me.Now how about doing it.

Vince