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#61
06-27-2005, 12:51 AM
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Re: Specific Question For Not Ready and Others
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[ QUOTE ] The dependence of man on other men leads to the Golden Rule [/ QUOTE ] You can't get an ought from an is. [/ QUOTE ] "ought to" is meaningless without a criterion. "ought to" for what? eastbay 
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#62
06-27-2005, 12:51 AM
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Hypothetical God 2 & Pascal\'s Wager
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It matters a lot as far as physicists are concerned. For example, the speed of light is x widths of a hydrogen atom during y flashes of a cesium atom. Can that speed be logically deduced from all the other laws of physics or was it the whim of Durron's God? [/ QUOTE ] Unless my hypothetical "God" determined all the other laws of physics to be such that the speed of light would be what it actually is. And then it really wouldn't matter from the physicists perspective. But what is interesting is that intuitively (to me) my hypothetical "God" is more likely, yet so few believe in this "God", including me. There are a lot more Catholics than there are deists, no? (FWIW I am not a Catholic nor a Deist nor an Athiest). Here's another hypothetical "God". Imagine this "God" is the same as the previous "God" except there is a Heaven and a Hell. The criteria he uses to determine whether you deserve to go to Heaven or Hell is whether you respect the rights and beliefs of your fellow man throughout your life as long as their actions don't infringe on your own rights or beliefs. In other words, proselytizing = bad. What is the correct course of action according to Pascal's Wager now? --------------------------- Note: most of my posts in this thread will be more questions than answers. I consider myself a meta-agnostic. ( [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] )
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#64
06-27-2005, 12:59 AM
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Re: Specific Question For Not Ready and Others
The problem with your statements has been pointed out before. I don't think there are many people who beleive if God exists that his power isn't absolute. However, I think most people agree that the God from the Bible (especially Old Testament) isn't making himself known in the same ways as before. Even if everything you said is true, many people who could/would follow the correct path never will due to simple chance. Which bring up other questions, such as.
1. If God's will is absolute, then why are man's choices or beliefs important to him? Obviously what people think, or try to figure out has some value, even if they come to an incorrect conclusion. 2. While many people do not follow the path we are supposed to follow according to you. Their reason for being damned cannot be because they think they are greater than God in anyway. I'm will to bet even Sklanksy doesn't think he plays poker better than God, or know any subject better than him. Even if I were to judge God from my point of view, wouldn't my point of view simply be an incomplete portion of God's view of himself? (Since he is the creator) 3. If I am correct about 2, then what is the real reason? P.S. I agree. Without God there is no point in anything as far as I can see.
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#66
06-27-2005, 01:00 AM
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Re: Specific Question For Not Ready and Others
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[ QUOTE ] "ought to" is meaningless without a criterion. "ought to" for what? [/ QUOTE ] Exactly. Why should I obey the Golden Rule? [/ QUOTE ] I already stated why. Because it is in your interests as a sentient being with a will to live and the desire to be comfortable in that life. It produces results which you seek, to achieve those goals of life and happiness. eastbay
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#67
06-27-2005, 01:02 AM
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Re: Specific Question For Not Ready and Others
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[ QUOTE ] Nice circle. [/ QUOTE ] All human reasoning about ultimate issues is circular. [/ QUOTE ] Which takes me back to my original question: why do I care? I care not for circular "reasoning" because it is not generative of anything I care about. eastbay
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#69
06-27-2005, 01:35 AM
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Re: Specific Question For Not Ready and Others
The problem here eastbay (as I see it) is that you are trying to defeat through logic Notready's beliefs.
But I think it has sufficiently been established that we cannot rigorously prove Notready wrong. Thus he chooses to take his faith as an axiom (isn't that what faith is?). The only logic that can be used to defend a core axiom is circular. If P is "God is defined to be what he is based on everything Notready & the Bible have stated about his existence", then all of Notready's logic exists in the universe "Assume P". Obviously it is true that "P implies P", which seems circular to those who don't assume P. This is also why Sklansky said: [ QUOTE ] I have no good reason to believe you are wrong when you say there is no meaning without God. [/ QUOTE ] Notready is making a perfectly correct logical argument given his axioms. The issue here should really be, then, "is his axiom correct?"
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#70
06-27-2005, 01:35 AM
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Re: Specific Question For Not Ready and Others
[ QUOTE ]
many people who could/would follow the correct path never will due to simple chance [/ QUOTE ] Chance doesn't exist for God. [ QUOTE ] If God's will is absolute, then why are man's choices or beliefs important to him? [/ QUOTE ] I honestly don't know. Why God created in the first place is a knotty problem theology has been unable to answer. The Bible doesn't say why He did. There is much speculation, but in the end we simply accept that He did for His own good reasons. [ QUOTE ] Their reason for being damned cannot be because they think they are greater than God in anyway. I'm will to bet even Sklanksy doesn't think he plays poker better than God, or know any subject better than him. [/ QUOTE ] This doesn't often come out in an obvious way. Think of a child who willfully disobeys his parents, even though he knows better. If you asked him, he probably would deny that he thinks he is better than they. But the implication is that he does because he substitues his will for theirs, his desires for theirs. [ QUOTE ] P.S. I agree. Without God there is no point in anything as far as I can see. [/ QUOTE ] Great. And if you can see that, can you see that God may not tell us everything we want to know, but for His reasons only tell us what we need to know?
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