Multiculturalism. Is it suicide?

[adios]

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If you believe that we are influenced by moslems coming here (as we clearly are) how do you figure that they are not influenced by the society they arrive to?

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Its got something to do with the content of the book they carry with them. Something about how sacred they consider it, and the fact they face Mecca and pray five times a day ... something about that makes me feel they believe it.

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It's ok to believe it. The question is whether or not their allegiance is to the country they live in and the leaders of that country or to leaders of their religion that are in viloent opposition to the country that they live and are citizens of. To me multiculturalism actually tolerates the allegiance to religous leaders that are in violent opposition of the country that they live in and are citizens of. To me that's insane.

[ACPlayer]

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The bottom line is that people make choices and those choices have consequences.

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Exactly correct. We chose to eat at the fast food counter and got attacked by transfatty acids. We chose to implement unfair foreign policy ideas for short term profit and got attacked by backpacks with bombs.

It is arrogant and stupid to analyze and point fingers at what is wrong with Islam (and there is plenty) without first understanding our own culpability and role in this mess. The reason I take issue with the attackers of Islam is not because I am fond of it (actually, I am not fond of any religion) but because it is not the main issue, ir is an easy emotionally attractive red herring.

Remember it is far easier to change ourselves than to get others to change. If the net result is the same (in this case we become increase our safety) then should be not do all we can to change ourselves too?

This is a common mistake. We blame the other guy and not consider our own failings and the opportunities we have to improve ourselves.

[Dov]

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arrogant and stupid to analyze and point fingers at what is wrong with Islam (and there is plenty) without first understanding our own culpability and role in this mess.

...

Remember it is far easier to change ourselves than to get others to change. If the net result is the same (in this case we become increase our safety) then should be not do all we can to change ourselves too?

This is a common mistake. We blame the other guy and not consider our own failings and the opportunities we have to improve ourselves.

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Do you hear any process in Islam today that resembles the discussion going on in western countries? I mean things along the lines of them trying to understand us and accomodate us as well.

They aren't asking "Why do the Americans do what they do?"

They are starting with a conclusion and working backward into it, using the Koran to justify their flawed logic.

When this is a 2 way discussion, with both sides trying to improve, then your approach will become more correct.

In the meantime, changing for its own sake is simply appeasement and will not result in any meaningful gains.

It's like saying that since a 2 year old is less likely to change than you are, then you should buy him the toy that he is screaming about in the store, even though you can't afford it.

Just because he is inflexible doesn't make him correct, and doesn't mean that we should be flexible enough to make up the difference.

When they start having the "Why do they hate us?" discussion, then we will have room to grow.

[ACPlayer]

They dont have to have the discussion with us.

We can have the discussion internally and see what policies may have been harmful, and what we can do about changing them.

Excellence is about enhancing the self, it includes being able to criticize oneself and in fact demands that you CONSTANTLY look for places you can improve to bring about desired change. The desired change here is to counter the influence of militant islam amongst the moderate muslims around the world. Appointing Karen Hughes as special ambassador and dispatching Laura Bush for a debacle tour of the Middle East is not enough. We have to review and, perhaps, change policy. We are in control of our own ability to change and have to wait for no one. This should not be about them, but us.

So, the question should be are there policies that we can review and aggressively implement to make our lives safer. To give the moderate muslim something to look forward to and to once again see the USA as giving to the world community.

Trade, the Palestinian question, support of the middle east dictators should all be up for review.

Leaving our security to the moderate muslim to police the extremist is an extremely passive strategy. Not a winning one.

[Bez]

Turkey aren't in the EU due to their appalling record on human rights, not because they are Muslim. Are there any Muslim countries that don't have appalling records on human rights?

[Cyrus]

I return from a short vacation and what do I find?

Your post about Martingale (which misses the point by a mile -- but I will maybe respond to that pap another time) and this silly little evasiveness!

Who said anything about Islam being good or bad? I thought I was quite specific : Even if we accept your position that Islam itself (and not "radical Islam") is guilty as charged for intolerance etc, what say you to the claim that Islam is closest most of all other religions to Judaism?

Doesn't that make all Jews followers of an equally horrible religion, practitioners of intolerance, etc?

This, my good man, is the question, and not the chaff you put out. And, I should warn you, that the claim about Judaism and Islam was made by a poster who seems pretty informed about Judaism! (Read all about it!)

And why were you notably absent when bossJJ run riot all over yer Christian tenets in the Philosophy Forum?

Busy studying the Koran? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus, I guess you missed the post where I swore off arguing with nitwits.

I may still comment from time to time, but I'm all done arguing.

Martingale that.

[ACPlayer]

Good idea.

You need a leg to stand on before you can argue -- or two or four or eight.

Enjoy your retirement.

[bholdr]

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Your information sources pick and choose quotes, and interpret them in order to reach predefined conclusions. You reliance of sources like MEMRI is one example (your other linked sources are no less propagandist in nature) of tainted sources.


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aggreed. nh ac

[Olof]