Play a Hand With the Masters #2 River

[adanthar]

*Having played the hand this way*, this is a check, expecting to lose to QT, and here is why:

You got minraised on an AKJ flop with top two. I push here, but Gigabet called, probably because among other things, he is a better hand reader and expects to gain more information on the turn than I do even at the cost of losing some value vs. worse hands. Fine.

You then get bet into *for half of your stack* on the turn. Again, I personally would push here. If Gigabet didn't, though, it's because he suspects he is behind. Think about it: every 2 pair hand and even most of the weak aces call a turn push getting a bazillion to one, so if you were gonna value put more chips in, that was the street.

So the river is a flush card that makes Hero a full house and the villain checks. What does he put Hero on? He knows the board hit him, probably hard, and it's quite possible he just made a boat as well as a flush (remember, Hero just called a turn bet, getting odds to draw to one.) But the turn was a milking bet, so Villain's hand is pretty strong vs. that board.

So Villain's hand does not beat a flush. It almost certainly, however, beats top 2 pair, the lone exception being AQ. Like I said, I check, and like I said, I expect to lose to QT.

But I push on the flop and definitely on the turn and lose to QT two streets ago.

[grandgnu]

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So Villain's hand does not beat a flush. It almost certainly, however, beats top 2 pair, the lone exception being AQ. Like I said, I check, and like I said, I expect to lose to QT.

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So if you are certain that villian is on the straight, and is scared of the flush and the boat, why check and allow him to take it down? You're risking about 1K chips to win 4500 from what I recall. So he just has to lay down 1 time in 4.5 tries for this to be the right play.

[adanthar]

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So if you are certain that villian is on the straight, and is scared of the flush and the boat, why check and allow him to take it down? You're risking about 1K chips to win 4500 from what I recall. So he just has to lay down 1 time in 4.5 tries for this to be the right play.

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Villain folds a straight in online poker 1 time in 1237374387849127374. Give or take one.

[SossMan]

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*Having played the hand this way*, this is a check, expecting to lose to QT, and here is why:

You got minraised on an AKJ flop with top two. I push here, but Gigabet called, probably because among other things, he is a better hand reader and expects to gain more information on the turn than I do even at the cost of losing some value vs. worse hands. Fine.

You then get bet into *for half of your stack* on the turn. Again, I personally would push here. If Gigabet didn't, though, it's because he suspects he is behind. Think about it: every 2 pair hand and even most of the weak aces call a turn push getting a bazillion to one, so if you were gonna value put more chips in, that was the street.

So the river is a flush card that makes Hero a full house and the villain checks. What does he put Hero on? He knows the board hit him, probably hard, and it's quite possible he just made a boat as well as a flush (remember, Hero just called a turn bet, getting odds to draw to one.) But the turn was a milking bet, so Villain's hand is pretty strong vs. that board.

So Villain's hand does not beat a flush. It almost certainly, however, beats top 2 pair, the lone exception being AQ. Like I said, I check, and like I said, I expect to lose to QT.

But I push on the flop and definitely on the turn and lose to QT two streets ago.

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that actually sounds about right. I think I check here now too.

With his check on the river I really feel that the BB has AK, AQ, or AT. He's been betting down feeling like he may have the best hand but he also figured he had outs to make a better hand.

The interesting thing is that if he also holds AK here then our smooth call of the turn was actually a great play. I think there is a good chance if we fire at the river he may laydown all three of these as he really can't feel like he beats anything here. Yes the pot is huge but he still has 12BBs behind, which means he can still get away and have chips to play.

If he has AK and we push here, then he can't figure it to be good anymore as any hand he beats would check behind. This could be an example of having KQJT on the board at the turn with no flush yet and holding an ace against an opponent we also are pretty sure has the ace. Instead of just pushing the turn and splitting we might as well at least wait til the river and if the board pairs then push in the off chance that he folds being afraid of us having a boat. Is it likely he folds the straight now? Probably not but there is a better chance, even if small, that he might and since he wasn't folding the nuts on the turn we would lose nothing taking a shot here.

[curtains]

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So Villain's hand does not beat a flush. It almost certainly, however, beats top 2 pair, the lone exception being AQ. Like I said, I check, and like I said, I expect to lose to QT.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you are certain that villian is on the straight, and is scared of the flush and the boat, why check and allow him to take it down? You're risking about 1K chips to win 4500 from what I recall. So he just has to lay down 1 time in 4.5 tries for this to be the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian will never fold a straight.

Also if villian checked the river with a straight I really don't see why we even bother to apply logic to his actions, because checking the river with QT is just terrible and devoid of merit.

I mean there are a lot of bad players on PartyPoker, but we haven't played this hand as though we are facing one of the biggest idiots in the world. Checking the river with QT makes our opponent a total donk idiot. It goes completely against any kind of poker theory. If my opponent is willing to play that stupidly, then hes going to get all my chips when I move allin for my last 990 (Which would of course been received if he had just moved allin on the river like a normal person).

[adanthar]

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Also if villian checked the river with a straight I really don't see why we even bother to apply logic to his actions, because checking the river with QT is just terrible and devoid of merit.

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Well, in theory, there are plenty of Party donks that will 'slowplay' a monster this way through the turn, as well as plenty of donks that are terrified when a bad card hits and check the second nuts. So the fact that he checked the river with QT does not mean he's a giant idiot, it just means he's a regular idiot. If you had some sort of clue that you were behind and didn't push the turn, the river changes little to nothing.

However, this relies entirely on you having enough of a read or a hunch not to push the turn.

[EverettKings]

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*Having played the hand this way*, this is a check, expecting to lose to QT, and here is why:

You got minraised on an AKJ flop with top two. I push here, but Gigabet called, probably because among other things, he is a better hand reader and expects to gain more information on the turn than I do even at the cost of losing some value vs. worse hands. Fine.

You then get bet into *for half of your stack* on the turn. Again, I personally would push here. If Gigabet didn't, though, it's because he suspects he is behind. Think about it: every 2 pair hand and even most of the weak aces call a turn push getting a bazillion to one, so if you were gonna value put more chips in, that was the street.

So the river is a flush card that makes Hero a full house and the villain checks. What does he put Hero on? He knows the board hit him, probably hard, and it's quite possible he just made a boat as well as a flush (remember, Hero just called a turn bet, getting odds to draw to one.) But the turn was a milking bet, so Villain's hand is pretty strong vs. that board.

So Villain's hand does not beat a flush. It almost certainly, however, beats top 2 pair, the lone exception being AQ. Like I said, I check, and like I said, I expect to lose to QT.

But I push on the flop and definitely on the turn and lose to QT two streets ago.

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Why would you call the turn and check the river? Why not just fold the turn if you're so sure you're behind? You don't have odds to draw to 4 outs.

[adanthar]

There's a combo of 'ahead vs. behind' equity with which you have odds to call the turn but not to bet the river, because all of the hands you were ahead of filled up (and the fact he checked means he doesn't have them, but that just leaves the ones you are behind).

edit: But I wouldn't have put him on exactly that range of probabilities and just pushed the turn.

[EverettKings]

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There's a combo of 'ahead vs. behind' equity with which you have odds to call the turn but not to bet the river, because all of the hands you were ahead of filled up (and the fact he checked means he doesn't have them, but that just leaves the ones you are behind).

edit: But I wouldn't have put him on exactly that range of probabilities and just pushed the turn.

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I'm kind of confused.

When he bets the turn, you think you're ahead, yes? You said you would push the turn so you're obviously ready to go to town with this hand.

But what on earth changes on the river? Few hands in his range improved, and he leads all in with them 99% of the time. Do you think that a worse hand would have called the turn but not the river? I can't think of any hand that would do that.

I mean, if your chips were good enough to go in on the turn then they're good enough to go in when checked to on the river.

If I'm missing your point, please expound a bit.

Everett